# Does Imus have a case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598 "2007-05-03T11:54:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/21 "2007-05-06T14:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] Heck, the man ought to have been given a raise, and the advertising rates raised! Who wasn’t going to listen in after that fiasco? [/QUOTE] Raise the rates to whom? The overwhelming majority of his sponsors dropped him. The audience is the product; audiences are not customers. It is possible, I suppose, that keeping him on the air would have attracted a larger audience that might have been sold to new sponsors, but given the rather wide range of sponsors who already supplied revenue for the show, it is difficult to figure out what sponsors would have lined up to replace the original set. As for raising rates, by the time new sponsors could have been found and rates negotiated, the whole thing would have been yesrerday’s news, no longer justifying higher rates. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/22 "2007-05-07T14:58:10Z")
It was reported over the weekend that it was standard to have Imus on seven second delay, but whoever manned the button chose not to bleep the comment, so I think that sort of cements his case, that the censor did not find the comment offensive (granted, he had only seven six and half seconds to decide). Imus could argue that he was to say whatever the hell he wanted and it was someone else’s responsibility to bleep as needed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/23 "2007-05-07T15:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] . . . so I think that sort of cements his case, that the censor did not find the comment offensive. . . [/QUOTE] Were I the CBS lawyers, I would sieze that as evidence that he was not let go for any explicit offensive behavior, but for losing sponsors and costing the broadcaster money. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/24 "2007-05-07T15:33:39Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Were I the CBS lawyers, I would sieze that as evidence that he was not let go for any explicit offensive behavior, but for losing sponsors and costing the broadcaster money. [/QUOTE] I don’t see how that releases them from a contract. If Imus loses ratings, they can decline to renew his contract, but unless that power is specifically reserved by CBS (something no artist or agent would ever agree to) that is about all they can do. That is what an artisitic performance contract is for; the talent agrees to the terms of exclusivity, and the broadcaster takes the risk that they will remain popular through the term of the contract. A contract that allowed a broadcaster to cancel before the end of the term just because ratings went down is worthless to the performer. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/25 "2007-05-07T15:45:37Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] I don’t see how that releases them from a contract. If Imus loses ratings, they can decline to renew his contract, but unless that power is specifically reserved by CBS (something no artist or agent would ever agree to) that is about all they can do. That is what an artisitic performance contract is for; the talent agrees to the terms of exclusivity, and the broadcaster takes the risk that they will remain popular through the term of the contract. A contract that allowed a broadcaster to cancel before the end of the term just because ratings went down is worthless to the performer. [/QUOTE] Just to be a little more clear, Imus was fired for losing _sponsors_, not ratings (and not for his comments dircetly). There may be something in his contract requiring him to keep a certain number of sponsors or allowing CBS to terminate if he alienates sponsors. Like **Tom** said, the sponsors are the customers, not the audience. In any business, if you cost your store 90% of it’s customers, you’re going to get canned. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/26 "2007-05-07T15:52:46Z")
Does anybody have a comprehensive list of Imus’ sponsors before and after his “nappy headed hos” remark? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/27 "2007-05-07T18:03:34Z")
By itself, the clause quoted in the OP would seem to have no operative effect whatsoever. It doesn’t appear to put any restrictions on CBS or grant Imus any particular rights. It’s merely a statement that CBS “acknowledges” something. Without some other provision of the contract that refers to this, it would have no purpose. There is no way you can come to any conclusion without seeing the entire employment contract. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/28 "2007-05-07T19:01:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] In any business, if you cost your store 90% of it’s customers, you’re going to get canned. [/QUOTE] Not if I have a contract that does not specifically grant that power to my employer. Analogies to at-will employment are not relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/29 "2007-05-07T19:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Not if I have a contract that does not specifically grant that power to my employer. Analogies to at-will employment are not relevant here. [/QUOTE] And barring a link to the actual contract, we have no idea what is actually in the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/30 "2007-05-07T19:25:47Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] And barring a link to the actual contract, we have no idea what is actually in the contract. [/QUOTE] Well, we have some idea. I have only made claims based on those clauses which have been made public. Anyone claiming CBS has rights to terminate a contract based solely on losing advertisers needs to support that with language from the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/31 "2007-05-07T19:29:12Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Not if I have a contract that does not specifically grant that power to my employer. Analogies to at-will employment are not relevant here. [/QUOTE] I think you’ve got it backwards. An employer can fire an employee for any reason, unless there is a contract that specifically _denies_ that power to the employer (under certain circumstances). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/32 "2007-05-07T19:30:44Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I think you’ve got it backwards. An employer can fire an employee for any reason, unless there is a contract that specifically _denies_ that power to the employer (under certain circumstances). [/QUOTE] This is not an at will employment relationship. CBS has no unwritten rights. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/33 "2007-05-07T19:33:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Well, we have some idea. I have only made claims based on those clauses which have been made public. Anyone claiming CBS has rights to terminate a contract based solely on losing advertisers needs to support that with language from the contract. [/QUOTE] We certainly have those clauses that Imus’s’ lawyers want to display in the pre-trial publicity fight. I am not asserting any outcome–only noting that speculation based on what has so far made it to the media is premature. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/34 "2007-05-07T19:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I am not asserting any outcome–only noting that speculation based on what has so far made it to the media is premature. [/QUOTE] Well, yeah; that’s why it is called _speculation_. We don’t have all the facts, and we are spitballing based on what we do know. If you are saying it is pointless to do that, you suck the life out of half the threads posted on this messageboard. Where’s the fun in that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/35 "2007-05-07T19:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] This is not an at will employment relationship. CBS has no unwritten rights. [/QUOTE] First of all, your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Second, neither of these is sufficient to make conclusions regarding what either party’s rights might be. Simply knowing that an employment contract _exists_ tells you nothing regarding what it says and, additionally, whether what it says is dispositive. Even if an employment contract exists, CBS can fire Imus for any reason or no reason, until you point to the provision that says they can’t. Often there will be a generalized provision (either “can’t be fired for X term” or “can only be fired for cause”) and then further modifying terms (“except under these circumstances” or “this is what constitutes cause”). Furthermore, there might be other factors, external to the employment contract, that might be operative (sometimes _even if_ the contract includes an integration term that says “there are no factors beyond the terms of this written contract”). So without having a copy of the contract, you’re just talking out of your ears. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/36 "2007-05-07T20:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] So without having a copy of the contract, you’re just talking out of your ears. [/QUOTE] This is the equivalent of barging into a discussion about religion and dismissing all debate because “God works in mysterious ways”. If you find debate in the absence of perfect knowledge unsettling, you are invited to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/37 "2007-05-07T20:11:09Z")
I disagree with you. Several assertions about employment contracts and legal rights have been made. I’ve pointed out that they some of them, at least, are made without basis. In other words, I’ve pointed out that some of the _arguments_ in a _debate_ thread are _unsupported_ either by logic or by evidence. I don’t think it’s useless, in a thread that asks questions about certain parties’ legal rights, to point out that some of the assertions made are made without sufficient knowledge about the law or the facts. So, I thank you for your invitation to leave, but I’ll decline it for now. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/38 "2007-05-07T20:21:12Z")
Suit yourself. I just don’t see the point in seeking to quash discussion just because we don’t know all the facts, which you have repeated several times, in different ways. The only other assertion you have made is this: > [@](#): > > Even if an employment contract exists, CBS can fire Imus for any reason or no reason, until you point to the provision that says they can’t. I will grant you this point. They can fire him. It does not release them from paying the $40 million, however. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/39 "2007-05-07T20:25:33Z")
[QUOTE=Duke of Rat] Does anybody have a comprehensive list of Imus’ sponsors before and after his “nappy headed hos” remark? [/QUOTE] If his sponsors were anything like they were when I was watching him, they basically appealed to older folks with money. Investment firms and generally high-end interests. He also hawked a few items with his name on them. I’m reasonably sure his viewers were predominately baby boomers, republican, and with a few bucks in their pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598/40 "2007-05-07T20:33:25Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] If his sponsors were anything like they were when I was watching him, they basically appealed to older folks with money. Investment firms and generally high-end interests. He also hawked a few items with his name on them. I’m reasonably sure his viewers were predominately baby boomers, republican, and with a few bucks in their pockets. [/QUOTE] That’s nice, but does anybody have a cite for him losing “90% of his sponsors” or “overwhelming majority of his sponsors dropped him”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-imus-have-a-case/402598.md?page=3)