# Does Infinity Really Exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269 "2008-11-24T16:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/21 "2008-11-24T20:58:47Z")
The possible positions of an electron is more or less infinite. See, an electron’s “positon” is a probabilistic energy state. The grade-school concept of discrete little electrons orbiting a nice, round atom is totally incorrect, albeit useful. Since the electron has no actual mass or position, only a probability of so much energy being in a certain position, it exists in an infinte number of locations simultaneously. This may or may not be limited by the Plank length, however, and even the plank length specifies that below that limit, nothing exists in the way we define “existance”. ---
**Author:** ![shallora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@shallora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shallora)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/22 "2008-11-24T21:22:43Z")
1. Let’s say outer space is finite. That is, it has a definite boundary. 2. What is beyond that boundary? That’s right: Outer space #2. 3. Let’s say that outer space #2 is finite and has a boundary. 4. What is beyond that? And so on and so on . . . ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/23 "2008-11-24T21:22:47Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Since the electron has no actual mass or position, only a probability of so much energy being in a certain position, it exists in an infinte number of locations simultaneously. What do you mean by “no actual mass”? Doesn’t an electron have a mass of 9.1095 x 10^-28 grams? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/24 "2008-11-24T21:46:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Let’s step back here, for a moment. Before we try to figure out if infinity actually exists, let me ask you: Does 1 exist? I have, at various points in my life, seen 1 apple, or 1 chair, or 1 yo-yo, but I’ve never seen just a 1. Right, but you can represent numbers in the natural world. As you said, you can see an apple, and earth, a galaxy, or detect an atom, an electron, a photon, or even a quark. How can you detect an infinity. I don’t need to tell you that infinity is not a number, and as Lib points out, it can be represented as such in mathematics, but it’s not a real number – rational, irrational or otherwise. Is that circle round? Does the ratio of its circumference to it’s diameter equal pi? In pure geometry it does, but in reality it’s always an approximate. You can have one apple, but not infinite apples (or an infinite apple). Can we have an infinite _anything?_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/25 "2008-11-24T21:47:20Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > **Does Infinity Really Exist?** In the same sense as any other mathematical concept exists. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/26 "2008-11-24T21:51:07Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The possible positions of an electron is more or less infinite. See, an electron’s “positon” is a probabilistic energy state. The grade-school concept of discrete little electrons orbiting a nice, round atom is totally incorrect, albeit useful. Since the electron has no actual mass or position, only a probability of so much energy being in a certain position, it exists in an infinte number of locations simultaneously. > > This may or may not be limited by the Plank length, however, and even the plank length specifies that below that limit, nothing exists in the way we define “existance”. First of all, you can’t more-or-less infinite, either it is, or it’s just an absurd amount. But I’ll concede it’s a figure of speech. What I understand from QM, is that when any subatomic particle is interacted with, its position (or momentum) collapses. Does this mean there are infinite electrons, or an infinite number of guesses as to where it may be or how fast it’s going? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/27 "2008-11-24T21:53:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the same sense as any other mathematical concept exists. Didn’t get much farther than the title? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/28 "2008-11-24T21:53:21Z")
that’s the rest mass. equivocally it’s also 0.511MeV in terms of energy. smiling bandit’s talking about heisenburg uncertainty where the locust of possible locations of an electron around a nucleus result in a cloud. Granted, the positions of the electron are infinite theoretically, it doesn’t prove the existence of infinity as the OP would dictate. You’re still modeling the positions discretely and yes theoretically there are an infinite number of places the electron can be, but it is the same as saying there are an infinite number of locations to exist in my house. ---
**Author:** ![meanoldman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@meanoldman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meanoldman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/29 "2008-11-24T22:07:59Z")
Re the OP. I’ll get back to you and let you know. But it’ll take awhile. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/30 "2008-11-24T22:09:44Z")
No problem. Take your time. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/31 "2008-11-24T22:26:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What do you mean by “no actual mass”? Doesn’t an electron have a mass of 9.1095 x 10^-28 grams? OOOooOOoooooOoooOOO Yes, it does. Maybe. Sorry, this is hard to explain. The damn thing is so small its very existence is sort of a matter of probabilities. It is a particle, and therefore has mass, but it’s also just energy at the same time, and therefore doesn’t. It mean, it has mass, but that mass may or may not exist at any given point. This is an aspect of phsyics which I dont’ totally understand. I’m not wholly convinced anybody does, but there are a alot of people who understand it better than me. If anyone here does (and I’m sure there are) please correct me if I’m wrong about some things. > [@cmyk](#): > > First of all, you can’t more-or-less infinite, either it is, or it’s just an absurd amount. But I’ll concede it’s a figure of speech. Well, as **pancakes3** mentions, it’s a matter of potential possible positions. So the particle/waveform is not in any one position, but in all of them, with a certain probability of any one position, at a given time. > [@](#): > > What I understand from QM, is that when any subatomic particle is interacted with, its position (or momentum) collapses. Yes, but that specific position/state doesn’t exist until the electron waveform is collapsed. Until then, it might in any position at all, and is somewhat is all of them at once. > [@](#): > > Does this mean there are infinite electrons, or an infinite number of guesses as to where it may be or how fast it’s going? Err… would you believe… _ **Yes** _? To both. At once. There could be one electron, ever, in the whole universe, which is simultanously in all neccessary positions everywhere. Or, there could be many electrons, each with a probability of being in a certain place at a certain time, if you like. Anyway, going back to the OP specifically, there’s no easy way to observe an infinity. Even if an infinite amount of, say, bubblegum surrounded the universe, we could not actually observe it all at once. We lack that capacity. We could posit that an infite amount exists, but never prove it directly. **By definition, nothing infinite can ever be measured or observed.** We cannot measure it, because all we can measure with are numbers, and we can always add +1 to anything we’ve measured in that manner. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/32 "2008-11-24T22:34:48Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sorry, this is hard to explain. The damn thing is so small its very existence is sort of a matter of probabilities. It is a particle, and therefore has mass, but it’s also just energy at the same time, and therefore doesn’t. It mean, it has mass, but that mass may or may not exist at any given point. I think I see what you’re saying. I just posted this quote in another thread, but it’s applicable here as well: “The atoms or the elementary particles are not real; they form a world of potentialities and possibilities rather than one of things or facts.” Werner Heisenberg And another quote, my favorite from a scientist: “Something unknown is doing we don’t know what.” Arthur Eddington ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/33 "2008-11-25T00:01:58Z")
\Yes it does. I have been there and beyond.\ ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/34 "2008-11-25T00:11:37Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > All measurements so far are indicating the universe has a “grain” to it. The infinities in mathematics do not. You can just keep drilling down into a fractal algorithm, and go forever. But, in the natural world, all ostensible fractals are really just approximations. Eventually, the recursive shapes and patterns come to an end. There’s a resolution to space-time, that can’t support infinities, no matter the size we’re talking about. While this may be strongly conjectured, it’s far from certain, and definitely not ‘indicated by measurement’ – between the relevant energies and what we can now (well, _could_ now) produce at the LHC are still about 15 orders of magnitude. It’s true that you can’t probe lengths beneath the Planck scale, on account of every attempt to do so just leaving you with a very small and very hot black hole, but that in itself doesn’t prove a quantised space-time. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/35 "2008-11-25T00:33:27Z")
Infinity does pop up in nature sometimes though, like the infinite amount of acceleration required to reach the speed of light, or the infinite amount of time it would take for something from our point of view to fall into a black hole. But these aren’t really “real” infinities. To actually observe something fall into a black hole, we’d have to wait an infinite amount of time, and so the experiment would never end, and we’d never get a real measurement. It’s just shorthand for defining a very large number compared to all the other measurements in a problem. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/36 "2008-11-25T00:37:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think I see what you’re saying. I just posted this quote in another thread, but it’s applicable here as well: “The atoms or the elementary particles are not real; they form a world of potentialities and possibilities rather than one of things or facts.” Werner Heisenberg > > And another quote, my favorite from a scientist: “Something unknown is doing we don’t know what.” Arthur Eddington Actually, I checked with someone and no, it appears electron orbital states are not infinite, since the Plank length limit means they will not, in fact, be infinte, although the possibilities are ridiculously huge. One infinity which does and must exist, however, is the disatnce from the Event Horizon to the center of a Black Hole. by analyzing the redshift of light from around a Black Hole, we can deduce what happened to the light which did not escape. Well, as it turns out, the only possible explanation for the redshiting observed is that it must be extending over an infinite distance. Of course, as I said, it’s impossible to actually observe this directly. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/37 "2008-11-25T00:58:36Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > One infinity which does and must exist, however, is the disatnce from the Event Horizon to the center of a Black Hole. by analyzing the redshift of light from around a Black Hole, we can deduce what happened to the light which did not escape. Well, as it turns out, the only possible explanation for the redshiting observed is that it must be extending over an infinite distance. That certainly makes sense; it is, after all, a singularity. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/38 "2008-11-25T01:26:20Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, I checked with someone and no, it appears electron orbital states are not infinite, since the Plank length limit means they will not, in fact, be infinte, although the possibilities are ridiculously huge. > > One infinity which does and must exist, however, is the disatnce from the Event Horizon to the center of a Black Hole. by analyzing the redshift of light from around a Black Hole, we can deduce what happened to the light which did not escape. Well, as it turns out, the only possible explanation for the redshiting observed is that it must be extending over an infinite distance. > > Of course, as I said, it’s impossible to actually observe this directly. Okay… that’s kinda cool. I’ve never looked at a singularity like that. Damn, that’s creepy. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/39 "2008-11-25T04:15:21Z")
Even weirder thought: If you crossed the line of the Event Horizon, in some sense you’d never actually die, as you would spend an infinite amount of time being sucked into the central singularity. In another sense, you’d be instantaneously shredded and your atomic energy sucked God-knows-where. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/40 "2008-11-25T14:19:29Z")
You would die in normal (local) time. Particles do not take an infinite amount of time to fall into a black hole, it only looks like they do because of the enormous redshift. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269.md?page=3)