# Does Infinity Really Exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269 "2008-11-24T16:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/41 "2008-11-25T14:54:52Z")
So, mere observation can deceive. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/42 "2008-11-25T15:24:13Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, I checked with someone and no, it appears electron orbital states are not infinite, since the Plank length limit means they will not, in fact, be infinte, although the possibilities are ridiculously huge. > > One infinity which does and must exist, however, is the disatnce from the Event Horizon to the center of a Black Hole. by analyzing the redshift of light from around a Black Hole, we can deduce what happened to the light which did not escape. Well, as it turns out, the only possible explanation for the \*\*redshiting \*\*observed is that it must be extending over an infinite distance. > > Of course, as I said, it’s impossible to actually observe this directly. Um…ew… I don’t think the singularity is infinitely far from the event horizon. I believe that space is warped so that the path back out for whatever goes past the event horizon is infinitely long. > [@smiling bandit](#): > > Even weirder thought: If you crossed the line of the Event Horizon, in some sense you’d never actually die, as you would spend an infinite amount of time being sucked into the central singularity. In another sense, you’d be instantaneously shredded and your atomic energy sucked God-knows-where. Falling into a black hole has been theorized to be like going to sleep…in a giant pasta machine. Actually, for supermassive black holes like you find in the center of most galaxies, the gravity well is so large you wouldn’t even know you crossed the event horizon (not capitalized…we aren’t talking about the Sam Niel movie). Space becomes warped though so your path back out of the horizon becomes infinitely long. In other words, once you cross that barrier, all roads lead to the singularity (which unfortunately for you, is a finite distance away). Is space infinite? The observable universe isn’t infinitely large, but what’s beyond the outer edge? Just infinite void? I mean does endless nothing with no matter or energy in it count as anything? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/43 "2008-11-25T15:26:27Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, I checked with someone and no, it appears electron orbital states are not infinite, since the Plank length limit means they will not, in fact, be infinte, although the possibilities are ridiculously huge. > > One infinity which does and must exist, however, is the disatnce from the Event Horizon to the center of a Black Hole. by analyzing the redshift of light from around a Black Hole, we can deduce what happened to the light which did not escape. Well, as it turns out, the only possible explanation for the redshiting observed is that it must be extending over an infinite distance. > > Of course, as I said, it’s impossible to actually observe this directly. You know, I was thinking about this a little more. And while I’m certainly just taking your word on it, are we sure it’s just not a trick of GR reference framing? Would an actual photon, particle, or any other entity actually take _forever_ to get from the EH to the sigularity, thereby never _actually_ getting there (ala Zeno’s Paradox\*)? \*while not a great analogy, you catch my drift. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/44 "2008-11-25T15:28:06Z")
Ahh, thanks **msmith537** … that kind of hits on my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/45 "2008-11-25T15:40:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Is space infinite? The observable universe isn’t infinitely large, but what’s beyond the outer edge? Just infinite void? I mean does endless nothing with no matter or energy in it count as anything? I suppose that’s part of the conundrum. Is space-time expanding _into_ anything? Or is our universe all that there is, and there simply _is no beyond,_ as hard as it is to grasp. If that’s the case, then the universe is finite, whether or not the “edge” will always elude us (e.g. it’s expanding faster than C, or it’s just too damn far out there). In other words, before the big bang, nothing existed, including _nothing itself._ Is that accurate? ETA: and yes, I understand the surface-of-the-balloon analogy to define how space is expanding, and wherever you are, it always looks like you’re in the center of the expansion. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/46 "2008-11-25T17:53:21Z")
stop and re-read what you wrote: “spacetime expanding into anything?” Space itself is expanding. It’s not expanding into more space, because space doesn’t exist there. There is no such thing as space for spacetime to expand into. It is truly nothing. Not even a void. There is no space there. If you want to look at the balloon analogy, there is no balloon outside of the balloon. The Balloon is all there is. And yes, it is expanding at a rate faster than c, which means it will always elude you. This is also why the universe is constantly expanding since it’s expanding faster than the mass within it can suck it back in. have we concluded that yes, infinity exists? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/47 "2008-11-25T18:19:43Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > have we concluded that yes, infinity exists? I still think my “Yes and no” answer was best, but then, I show a definite bias to myself, ever since I noticed that everyone I know who is right always agrees with me. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/48 "2008-11-25T18:37:37Z")
You know it’s threads like this that lead me to conclude I’m not as clever as I think I am. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/49 "2008-11-25T19:00:37Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > have we concluded that yes, infinity exists? It exists for those who are willing to wait an infinite amount of time for it. Good things come to those who wait! ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/50 "2008-11-25T19:20:00Z")
> [@Yumblie](#): > > It exists for those who are willing to wait an infinite amount of time for it. > > Good things come to those who wait! Precisely. 😉 Or, at some point in time, will the universe simply disappear back into the _nothing_-nothing from whence it came?\* \*Whether it’s open-ended or not ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/51 "2008-11-25T19:26:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The observable universe isn’t infinitely large, but what’s beyond the outer edge? Materialists have assured me there is no spoon. I mean edge. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/52 "2008-11-25T19:36:37Z")
Yes, as Hawking famously said, asking what’s beyond the universe is like asking what’s north of the north pole. It’s meaningless. And as Neo famously said, “Whoa.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/53 "2008-11-25T20:32:33Z")
Truly, the universe works in mysterious ways. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/54 "2008-11-25T20:54:27Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Would an actual photon, particle, or any other entity actually take _forever_ to get from the EH to the sigularity, thereby never _actually_ getting there (ala Zeno’s Paradox\*)? Both are true. The problem (which some people sorta got here) is that from the particle’s perspective, it takes an infinite time to cross the infinitely lengthened trek to the center of the Black Hole. Of course, from our perspective, it happens instantaneously, and theoretically the particle’s energy will be re-emitted into the universe in the from a White Hole maybe. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/55 "2008-11-25T21:09:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Truly, the universe works in mysterious ways. Most agreed. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/56 "2008-11-25T21:20:20Z")
There is an infinite amount of time between 4:19 and 5:00 on the Tuesday before I take the rest of the week off for Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/57 "2008-11-25T21:23:55Z")
Good point. There is an infinite amount of room in my stomach during Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/58 "2008-11-25T21:52:06Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Both are true. The problem (which some people sorta got here) is that from the particle’s perspective, it takes an infinite time to cross the infinitely lengthened trek to the center of the Black Hole. Of course, from our perspective, it happens instantaneously, and theoretically the particle’s energy will be re-emitted into the universe in the from a White Hole maybe. I believe you got that the wrong way round: something falling into a black hole takes a finite amount of proper time to get to the centre, but an infinite amount of time according to an outside observer. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/59 "2008-11-25T22:32:00Z")
All this leads me to another question. Assuming the universe does not allow true infinities to exist, how would that effect current theories on physics and cosmology? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269/60 "2008-11-25T22:53:04Z")
You still have to deal with the structure per se of black holes. When proper time is either 0 or the Schwarzschild radius, the solution of the Schwarzschild metric is a singularity. So the universe does allow for infinities to exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-infinity-really-exist/474269.md?page=4)