# Does Iran's bellicose rhetoric & justify a unilateral Israeli military response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583 "2005-12-14T14:40:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/21 "2005-12-14T20:34:55Z")
Short answer-No. In fact this idiotic rhetoric by some one with very little actual power actually helps Israel. Iran is no more or no less a risk today than it was last month. But such stupidity confirms to all the danger of allowing Iran to develop a bomb. With out doubt Israel would bomb a facility that seemed close to getting one and I am sure that her intelligence is better than Bush’s. The world surely now sees that avoiding that eventuality is in everyone’s best interests. Question: Is such a statement designed for domestic consumption or for play in the Iraq election? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/22 "2005-12-14T21:19:37Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > As for genocidal comments, I was talking about the genocidal comments of the Iranian president. I don’t see how the US or Israel attacking Iran to stop their nuclear bomb program would be genocidal unless the goal was to extirminate a large number of Iranian people. What exactly are you talking about? I’m talking about exactly the goal of extermianting a large number of Iranian people. I work with some “enlightened individuals” who want exactly that. Why? Which reason that they give do you want? That they are stinking Muslims? That they are a “bunch of fucking towel heads”? That “the U.S. is bigger than anyone else and can do whatever we want”? That “we should just nuke them all”? I’ve heard them all. These same fuckers thump their bibles a lot too. At work. Even after repeated requests by other workers, to shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/23 "2005-12-14T21:38:10Z")
So because you work with some office drones who have no problem with genocide, we should ignore the statements of the president of Iran? [http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) > [@](#): > > Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge. However, as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective, since the accuser is put on the defensive, and frequently feels compelled to defend against the accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/24 "2005-12-14T22:18:20Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Israel’s threatened attack in 2006 will seal the Middle East’s fate 10-15 years down the road. Are you saying that it is likely that Israel will attack Iran in 2006 if a solution to the nuclear issue is not found in the next few months? If so, this is screaming for a **Bricker** -style bet. I’ll lay odds against an Israeli attack. Interested? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/25 "2005-12-14T23:20:44Z")
Would [this](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1920074,00.html) change the odds of the bet? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/26 "2005-12-14T23:44:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And of course, even when the Iranians have nukes they almost certainly wouldn’t use them since they can’t nuke Israel without killing hundreds of thousands of muslim Arabs as collateral damage. Like such collateral damage has _ever_ been a problem for anyone with nukes… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/27 "2005-12-15T02:10:47Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So because you work with some office drones who have no problem with genocide, we should ignore the statements of the president of Iran? > > [Logical Fallacy: Tu Quoque](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) Guilty as charged. I try to avoid tu quouque. Usually I succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/28 "2005-12-15T02:31:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you saying that it is likely that Israel will attack Iran in 2006 if a solution to the nuclear issue is not found in the next few months? > > If so, this is screaming for a **Bricker** -style bet. I’ll lay odds against an Israeli attack. Interested? Do SDMB rules prevent our laying, say, $300 on the line? ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/29 "2005-12-15T04:15:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you saying that it is likely that Israel will attack Iran in 2006 if a solution to the nuclear issue is not found in the next few months? > > If so, this is screaming for a **Bricker** -style bet. I’ll lay odds against an Israeli attack. Interested? A more deliberate response: I’m uncertain as to what Israel will do, but as tensions flare, verbal threats escalate and the international community keeps beating the drums over the nearing/eventual nuclear weaponizing of Iran, it’s difficult to imagine Israel’s hardline leadership hoping for the best and declaring it’s Miller Time. True, bellicose rhetoric is merely hot air. But Iran has a clear track record of state-sponsored terrorism against Israel and their march toward a nuclear arsenal and acquisition of delivery vehicles marks a watershed in bilateral relations. Frankly, I think Iran’s leaders are far more rational than the western caricature. But with Ahmadinejad veering toward the ways of demogogue-ultranationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky, one has to wonder if the leadership will eventually reel him in, or if their real objective is to foment hate and fear and thus shape the upcoming Iraqi election. All that said, I have no doubt Israel is rehearsing for the big one. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/30 "2005-12-15T04:30:25Z")
I would lay odds on Iran never **completing** a nuke. Israel won’t let it happen–preferably by diplomacy(maybe) but by military if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/31 "2005-12-15T04:47:10Z")
If Iran really had a capable nuke, and were threatening Israel, would America help Israel? If so, what would happen then? Why do Iran and many countries in the middle east seem hell bent on killing people and countries? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/32 "2005-12-15T04:49:54Z")
As I see it Israel has 3 possible routes: - Do nothing and play the M.A.D. game. - Take out the Iranian facilities. - Mail the geographic coordinates of Mecca and Jerusalem to every Arab State. (a restatement of the first option) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/33 "2005-12-15T04:58:36Z")
Let’s not forget that Iran has not just talking this insanity, but acting on it. Is there any doubt that Iran is actively supporting a terrorist war against Israel? Iran’s fingerprints are all over terrorist attacks throughout the mideast. Their rhetoric regarding the destruction of Israel has been consistent for several years. If Mexico was constantly threatening to destroy the United States, and was launching attacks across the border and funding insurrectionists and terrorists in the U.S., and then started building an atomic bomb, do you think the U.S. would hesitate for two seconds to take military action? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/34 "2005-12-15T05:00:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s not forget that Iran has not just talking this insanity, but acting on it. That may be the worst sentence I’ve written. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/35 "2005-12-15T09:43:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Are you referring to the invasion of Lebanon in 1982, or the 1967 Six Day War? (Obviously, you can’t be referring to 1973, since in that case Israel was caught by surprise.) Sorry, yes, I meant 1967: the Yom Kippur War _would_ have warranted anticipatory self defence if Israel had detected the troop/materiel manouevres. I wouldn’t, personally, class the Lebanon War as instant proportionate responses, leaving no room for deliberation, to clear intent to invade. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/36 "2005-12-15T13:35:06Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > If Iran really had a capable nuke, and were threatening Israel, would America help Israel? If so, what would happen then? > Why do Iran and many countries in the middle east seem hell bent on killing people and countries? I’d have to say yes. For both internal political (a large jewish voting block) and simple ideological (supporting a democratic nation against non-democratic states) there would be enormous pressure on US leadership (whomever it might be) to support Israel in a war against Iran or, potentially, most of the other middle east states. As for why Iran and company seem ‘hell bent’ etc? There’s something deeper needed for the analysis of that. But I’m not really in a position to provide it. I once heard a speaker postulate that it was because the Arab/Central Asian form of tribalism didn’t develop adequate means to deal with other cultures without assimilation but I couldn’t say where that falls on the plausibility scale. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/37 "2005-12-15T14:05:31Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Do SDMB rules prevent our laying, say, $300 on the line? Let’s make it $100. My money is all tied up in real estate, stocks, and other non-liquid assets, you see… 😉 But, if you win, I’ll throw in a decent bottle of whisky as a kicker, since we will all need a drink if this happens. What do you want the timeframe to be? Since you’re suggesting an attack is in the offing in the spring, shall we call the bet by, say, July 1, 2006 – if no Israeli attack by then, I win. If they attack before then, you win. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/38 "2005-12-15T14:36:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s make it $100. My money is all tied up in real estate, stocks, and other non-liquid assets, you see… 😉 > > But, if you win, I’ll throw in a decent bottle of whisky as a kicker, since we will all need a drink if this happens. > > What do you want the timeframe to be? Since you’re suggesting an attack is in the offing in the spring, shall we call the bet by, say, July 1, 2006 – if no Israeli attack by then, I win. If they attack before then, you win. Read my follow-up post, old bean. BTW, if Israel does flex its muscles, that “decent bottle of whisky” ain’t going to cut it. Sensing American complicity, Iran just might decide to send a few birds to nearby oil fields. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/39 "2005-12-15T14:59:55Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Read my follow-up post, old bean. I did. I didn’t understand whether it was an attempt at prognosticating the future or an attempt to wiggle out of the bet. So, I take it that you’re wiggling out of the bet, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583/40 "2005-12-15T18:17:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I did. I didn’t understand whether it was an attempt at prognosticating the future or an attempt to wiggle out of the bet. > > So, I take it that you’re wiggling out of the bet, right? 🙂 No. I tendered an offer, you counteroffered, I did not accept. Basic contract law, old bean. That said, I might consider putting up, say, $100, provided any winnings go to the American Brain Tumor Association. The conditions: hostility erupts in 2006 between Israel and Iran. Think it over. I will too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-irans-bellicose-rhetoric-justify-a-unilateral-israeli-military-response/335583.md?page=3)