# Does Islam Deny the Existence of the Jewish Temple? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422 "2015-06-25T04:22:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/61 "2015-06-29T22:52:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You mean like telling people to murder Salman Rushdie? Yes, like the leader of a state issuing a directive… but of course it is impossible to make the difference is it not between the opinion of the religious teacher in the 90% of the MENA for which there is no legal status of the fatwa and the unique case of the Shia theocracy of the Iran which has the unique situation of a formal priesthood… But it is all the muslim horde, no? No differences can be made so I should of course be unable to make the difference between the american preachers making religious opinions in the Uganda promoting the killing of the gay men and the other american religious figures… all american christians, obviously no differences. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/62 "2015-06-29T22:54:24Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > A _fatwa_ is not a “decree”, it’s merely an interpretation or opinion issued by a religious scholar on a point of theology or religious law. Which happens all the time among Christian preachers, pastors, priests, and ministers. Exactly. It grows tiresome seeing these assertions of fact that in fact are not facts but gross misundrestandings. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/63 "2015-06-29T23:19:08Z")
I’m not sure it really matters if a _fatwa_ lacks force of law, if it has force of _force_, i.e. governmental sanction for individuals to commits acts of violence. Of course, not all _fatwa_ carry this sanction. The famous ones do, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/64 "2015-06-29T23:34:11Z")
Ainsi, what is the difference between the american preachers in Uganda then? The commentators use incorrectly the words decree, etc. False understandings. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/65 "2015-06-29T23:48:06Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Thisis nice, but then you can provide the accurate citations for the govenrment finanicng and not the private I am sure… > > because in most of the MENA the schools are not these “wahabbi schools” but ordinary state secular schools… (bad quality ones) > > Of course you “knew that” … (or maybe you confuse the Asians with us, the Pakistan and the Afghanistan… it is also the muslims yes? no differences to be made) From PBS’s [Frontline series (interview with Richard Holbrooke)](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/interviews/holbrooke.html): > [@](#): > > The dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist group who have internationalized their views using Saudi money, because there’s a lot of money around. And that’s become a sort of swamp, if you will, for breeding these people. > > I think that one of the tragedies of this story is that the Saudi Arabians exported their problem by financing the schools, the madrassas, all through the Islamic world. I saw this in Uzbekistan a few years after Uzbekistan got out of the Soviet Union, became an independent state in cities like Tashkent and Samarkand, where the Saudis were funding these schools teaching Koranic studies and creating a class of people for whom education was simply the Holy Book, the Koran. > > … What happened here was that the Saudi Arabian government had two wings. The mainland Saudi leadership went into financial issues, defense issues, and they controlled the elite establishment in order to purchase support. From the more fundamentalist religious groups, they gave certain other ministries, the religious ministries, education ministries, to more fundamentalist Islam leaders. And that’s how the split occurred. > > So the Saudi government was, to a certain extent, pursuing internally inconsistent policies throughout this period – reaching out to the West with sophisticated, well educated, internationally minded leaders like its foreign minister, like its ambassador in Washington and others. At the same time, it was funding with this vast oil revenue a different set of efforts: education, which was narrowly based in the Koran. … The funny thing is that even if it were all “private money”, the idea that it would not have been sanctioned by the Saudi Government is laughable. This is an absolute monarchy we are talking about here, not some jewel of Arab democracy in the desert. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/66 "2015-06-29T23:53:05Z")
From the wikipedia article on the Saudi Arabian legal system: \*The primary source of law is the Islamic Sharia derived from the teachings of the Qu’ran and the Sunnah (the traditions of the Prophet).[92] Saudi Arabia is unique among modern Muslim states in that Sharia is not codified and there is no system of judicial precedent, giving judges the power to use independent legal reasoning to make a decision. Saudi judges tend to follow the principles of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence (or fiqh) found in pre-modern texts[146] and noted for its literalist interpretation of the Qu’ran and hadith.[147] Because the judge is empowered to disregard previous judgments (either his own or of other judges) and may apply his personal interpretation of Sharia to any particular case, divergent judgements arise even in apparently identical cases,[148] making predictability of legal interpretation difficult.[149] The Sharia court system constitutes the basic judiciary of Saudi Arabia and its judges (qadi) and lawyers form part of the ulema, the country’s Islamic scholars. \ Saudi justice has been criticized for “ultra-puritanical judges”, being often harsh, (with beheading for the crime of witchcraft), but sometimes lenient, (for cases of rape or wife-beating), and slow, for example leaving thousands of abandoned women unable to secure a divorce.[155][156] In 2007, King Abdullah issued royal decrees reforming the judiciary and creating a new court system,[148] and, in 2009, the King made a number of significant changes to the judiciary’s personnel at the most senior level by bringing in a younger generation.[153] \* Remarkably similar to the US and other western countries!! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/67 "2015-06-30T01:05:27Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes, like the leader of a state issuing a directive… Are you referring to Osama BinLadin (sp)? Perhaps there is a difference for killing someone who killed 2,700 people and someone who wrote a book. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/68 "2015-06-30T01:38:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > From PBS’s [Frontline series (interview with Richard Holbrooke)](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/interviews/holbrooke.html): > > The funny thing is that even if it were all “private money”, the idea that it would not have been sanctioned by the Saudi Government is laughable. This is an absolute monarchy we are talking about here, not some jewel of Arab democracy in the desert. So I see your answer is “No I actually do not have any citation for school financing in the Middle East, but I will quote an American politican making assertions about countries not in the middle east” Of course your speculation about what private Saudi money can do is … typically american in its understanding, and very ignorant of the actual operations of the system. Democracy has not one thing to do with how the Saud deal with the religious money donations or indeed with the religious establishment… > [@John\_Mace](#): > > From the wikipedia article on the Saudi Arabian legal system: > > Remarkably similar to the US and other western countries!! It is a Wonderful straw man Mace, you continue to pile on to things not said by Monty at all about the comparison. Not one word did he write about the Legal System. Of course this continues the typical ignorant idiiocy of the MENA = the Saudi Arabia as of course the Saudi legal system is not at all like the rest of the region. But please do continue to build up the mountains of Straw Men. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are you referring to Osama BinLadin (sp)? > Perhaps there is a difference for killing someone who killed 2,700 people and someone who wrote a book. 🙂 No perhaps I am refering to your Oklahoma bomber or maybe to the mass killers motivated by the white supramacist ideologies preached in a certain type of church… Of course it is funny this gross ignorant bigotry that says Muslim = Osama Bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/69 "2015-06-30T01:51:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are you referring to Osama BinLadin (sp)? > 🙂 Of course it is worth the while to point out how doubly stupid this is because the Osama bin Laden was no kind of religious leader in any of the ordinary senses but the leader of a organization of terror war, an army in a way. It is his engineering planning and not any imagined religious opinion that led to the crime of the world trade center attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/70 "2015-06-30T01:52:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > … What I was alluding to is that politics is full-on connected with religion in the Middle East and in the United States. As a reminder here is the statement of Monty… Upon which all the badly constructed straw men are being built out of reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/71 "2015-06-30T01:54:51Z")
Personally, I’m confident I can’t be called ignorant of or bigoted against Islam because I hold _all_ religions in disdain. Granted, my _degrees_ of disdain vary somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/72 "2015-06-30T02:03:40Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course it is worth the while to point out how doubly stupid this is because the Osama bin Laden was no kind of religious leader in any of the ordinary senses but the leader of a organization of terror war, an army in a way. It is his engineering planning and not any imagined religious opinion that led to the crime of the world trade center attacks. It is stupid for me to guess what you are speaking about when you do not say? Of course, it makes it easy to cover your ass that way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/73 "2015-06-30T02:03:47Z")
Super excellent. Hold them all in disdain. I do not care at all, including for the Islam, it does not bother me. Saying things that are stupid and factually wrong is another issue. Saying so deliberately is more so. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/74 "2015-06-30T02:11:47Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Super excellent. Hold them all in disdain. > > I do not care at all, including for the Islam, it does not bother me. > > Saying things that are stupid and factually wrong is another issue. Saying so deliberately is more so. What are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/75 "2015-06-30T02:37:34Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > So I see your answer is “No I actually do not have any citation for school financing in the Middle East, but I will quote an American politican making assertions about countries not in the middle east” Holdbrooke isn’t “a politician”. But choosing between Richard Holbrooke and some anonymous poster on a MB is not a difficult choice at all. He’s got a resume a mile long, and you have… anger and condescension. > [@](#): > > It is a Wonderful straw man Mace, you continue to pile on to things not said by Monty at all about the comparison. Not one word did he write about the Legal System. You have too narrow a view of what the word [politics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics) means. > [@](#): > > Politics (from Greek: πολιτικός politikos, definition “of, for, or relating to citizens”) is the practice and theory of influencing other people. More narrowly, it refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance — organized control over a human community, particularly a state. Furthermore, politics is the study or practice of the distribution of power and resources within a given community (a usually hierarchically organized population) as well as the interrelationship(s) between communities. > > A variety of methods are employed in politics, which include promoting or forcing one’s own political views among people, negotiation with other political subjects, making laws, and exercising force, including warfare against adversaries. Politics is exercised on a wide range of social levels, from clans and tribes of traditional societies, through modern local governments, companies and institutions up to sovereign states, to the international level. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/76 "2015-06-30T04:25:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course it is worth the while to point out how doubly stupid this is because the Osama bin Laden was no kind of religious leader in any of the ordinary senses but the leader of a organization of terror war, an army in a way. It is his engineering planning and not any imagined religious opinion that led to the crime of the world trade center attacks. [The Washington Post says yes and no.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/was-osama-bin-laden-not-a-muslim-leader/2011/05/03/AFdVDUjF_blog.html) OBL was not the leader of a religious sect, but he was religious, and used religion in his exhortations. He issued fatwahs, which other religious leaders too the effort to rebut. He appeared, at least, to hold himself competent to make religious pronouncements and declarations, including decrees to commit murder. The Post’s nuance is admirable, as is President Obama’s efforts to separate anti-terrorist efforts from any appearance of an anti-Islamic crusade. This is a distinction that many on the right refuse to accept, holding that the struggle against terrorism is identical to a struggle against all Islam. In the same way, I think you err, and go a little too far, in trying to claim that OBL was “…No kind of religious leader in any of the ordinary senses.” He presented himself as one, and that is sometimes the only determinant we have. In Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, anyone who says he is a religious leader can be taken as one. (Anyone can purchase a Doctorate of Divinity from the Universal Life Church. Of course, they can also become a Jedi Knight the same way.) ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/77 "2015-07-01T15:27:30Z")
Pop quiz time! Yesterday, a government official issued a statement stating “Public officials are ministers of God assigned the duty of punishing the wicked and protecting the righteous.” Who did this government official work for? A) the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in Saudi Arabia B) the Revolutionary Courts of the Council of Guardians in Iran C) a _shari’ah_ court licensed by the Ministry of Justice in Egypt D) the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama ---
**Author:** ![JVDaly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@JVDaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JVDaly)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/78 "2015-07-01T16:07:21Z")
You’re reaching Aisha. This is really quite sad. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/79 "2015-07-01T21:13:49Z")
How is citing the idiotic decree of a Christian idiot supposed to negate the fact that idiotic decrees are sometimes issued by Islamic idiots? “Idiotic Christians do it too” doesn’t rebut the claim that “It sometimes happens under Islam.” “Your side does it too” is not support for “My side doesn’t do this kind of thing.” Pretty much the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422/80 "2015-07-01T21:33:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How is citing the idiotic decree of a Christian idiot supposed to negate the fact that idiotic decrees are sometimes issued by Islamic idiots? It doesn’t. > [@](#): > > “Idiotic Christians do it too” doesn’t rebut the claim that “It sometimes happens under Islam.” It wasn’t meant to. > [@](#): > > “Your side does it too” is not support for “My side doesn’t do this kind of thing.” Pretty much the opposite. “My side doesn’t do this kind of thing” is not, and has never been, my argument. My argument has always been “The intermixture of religion and politics is not something only limited to Islam or something only Muslim countries have to deal with. Christianists and Islamists are cut from exactly the same kind of cloth, and the only thing that separates one from the other is the particulars of the religion they follow”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-deny-the-existence-of-the-jewish-temple/723422.md?page=5)