# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/181 "2016-06-13T17:49:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Could you point out where in those links there is mention of gays or the LGBT community? It’s nice that Muslims talk about “peace” and they totally don’t support extremism and stuff, but I’m not hearing anyone talk about Islam’s attitudes towards gays. The one guy took the daring step of referring to “other minorities” but never dared to actually utter the word “gay” or “LGBT.” Gee, you must be referring to this guy, Nihad Awad of CAIR. it is clear that the video was cut but here is the important official release: > **[TV Everywhere | Sparklight](https://www.sparklight.com/sparklighttv/tveverywhere)** > > Sparklight's TV Everywhere is a streaming service that allows you to enjoy your favorite shows from your computer, tablet, or smartphone — anywhere you have an Internet connection. > [@](#): > > Today, we must stand united. **For many years, members of the LGBT community have stood shoulder to shoulder with the Muslim community against any act of hate crimes** , Islamophobia, marginalization and discrimination. Today, we stand with them shoulder to shoulder. The liberation of the American Muslim community is profoundly linked to the liberation of other minority groups: blacks, Latinos, **gay** , Jewish, trans and every other community that has faced discrimination and operation in this country." ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/182 "2016-06-13T17:55:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes I agree. However, I wasn’t the one holding up Senegal and Tunisia as “Free” democratic nations of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Take it up with Freedom House. Many countries rated as “free” also persist in having anti-LGBT laws. I’m not saying this to excuse those nations – such as how in the United States allows someone to be fired from their job simply for being homosexual – but the rating of “free” by Freedom House is a general, not perfect, indication of the country’s respect for political and press freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/183 "2016-06-13T18:13:54Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’m pretty sure that if the Bible, the Koran, and the Hadith had a footnote on every page saying “Being gay is A-OK!”, (as opposed to, for instance, “Kill the one who does it and the one it is done to”), there’d be a lot less homophobia in the world. I don’t know. Some dude tried the whole “love thy neighbor” thing and his followers largely ignored him and devoted a couple thousand years to kill each other out of petty differences. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/184 "2016-06-13T18:14:00Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Could you point out where in those links there is mention of gays or the LGBT community? It’s nice that Muslims talk about “peace” and they totally don’t support extremism and stuff, but I’m not hearing anyone talk about Islam’s attitudes towards gays. The one guy took the daring step of referring to “other minorities” but never dared to actually utter the word “gay” or “LGBT.” The last link had a 14 minute clip of an Imam talking about how they’re totally not into violence and didn’t radicalize the guy but I didn’t listen to the whole thing. Did he ever mention gays or LGBT? Even once? Sure, a few individual gay Muslims can take to twitter and say “I’m gay and Muslim” but so what? I’d expect that. Did you notice that you went from “I’m not hearing anyone talk about Islam’s attitudes towards gays” there, and got to “Sure, a few individual gay Muslims can take to twitter and say “I’m gay and Muslim” but so what?” Did you notice that you started off asking me where in those links there’s mention of gays of the LGBT community, and then noted several examples of that, and said “so what?” When you ask for an answer to a question, then find answers immediately to some of those questions and immediately pivot to “so what?”, I don’t really see why you’re even asking those questions in the first place. Especially when you so immediately dismiss responses \*you yourself \*find. It’s incredible. Oh, and the last link; > [@](#): > > Shibly said the LGBT community has stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Muslims in the fight against Islamophobia, and he vowed to return the support. > > “The reality is, we both have the same enemies that promote fear and hate against the U.S. and that have targeted both communities for violent acts,” Shibly said during a midday news conference organized by CAIR. > > Standing beside Shibly was Carlos Guillermo Smith, a representative of Equality Florida, an LGBT advocacy group. He later reiterated that the two communities are united. > > “Let me be clear: Equality Florida stands in solidarity with the Muslim and Islamic community and in opposition to the intolerance, discrimination and hate crimes that both of our communities experience,” Smith said. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/185 "2016-06-13T18:25:42Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Did you notice that you went from “I’m not hearing anyone talk about Islam’s attitudes towards gays” there, and got to “Sure, a few individual gay Muslims can take to twitter and say “I’m gay and Muslim” but so what?” > > Did you notice that you started off asking me where in those links there’s mention of gays of the LGBT community, and then noted several examples of that, and said “so what?” > > When you ask for an answer to a question, then find answers immediately to some of those questions and immediately pivot to “so what?”, I don’t really see why you’re even asking those questions in the first place. Especially when you so immediately dismiss responses \*you yourself \*find. It’s incredible. > > Oh, and the last link; **T.M.** said Islam needs to join with the LGBT community and your response was to spam your response with links so the rest of us have to go through them all only to find they don’t address the LGBT issue. I don’t feel like jumping through your link hoops. If you’re going to post a link, perhaps you could also quote the part that supports your position. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/186 "2016-06-13T18:56:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Again, I have to admit I’m confused as to your approach here. You’re asking questions and talking about what you’re wondering about, but that doesn’t seem to match up to reading the cites that I’m giving to you or doing Googling on your own. Saying that you only know of one gay-friendly mosque when you don’t seem to be too keen on researching the matter seems like it might be a self-caused issue. I seem to be doing all the work here so here goes: [LGBT people and Islam - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam) > [@](#): > > In November 2012, a prayer room was set up in Paris by gay Islamic scholar and founder of the group ‘Homosexual Muslims of France’ Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed. It was described by the press as the first gay-friendly mosque in Europe. The reaction from the rest of the Muslim community in France has been mixed, the opening has been condemned by the Grand Mosque of Paris.[99] So, no gay mosques, no gay friendly mosque in France. It’s a prayer room in a Buddhist temple and it was condemned by the Grand Mosque of Paris. According to a link you provided, the guy who started the prayer room now lives in South Africa. I’m a bit tired of doing your work for you. Does this prayer room in a Buddhist temple even still exist? Why is my job to find out? You want me to track the guy down and give him a call? > [@](#): > > Ok. Here is an article which talks about Imams across France denouncing the large terrorist attacks in Paris last year, led by the overarching Islamic council in France. There’s apparently a lot of refutation of such violence and depravity, which is not “authentic Islam”, on a theological level. What’s that got to do with LGBT issues? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/187 "2016-06-13T19:05:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > **T.M.** said Islam needs to join with the LGBT community and your response was to spam your response with links so the rest of us have to go through them all only to find they don’t address the LGBT issue.I don’t feel like jumping through your link hoops. If you’re going to post a link, perhaps you could also quote the part that supports your position. Of the cites I, er, cited, three referred to violence not targeted against LGBT groups, so you’re right for those, they don’t address that specific issue. The other three do. And, luckily for you, I DID quote the part that supports my position. Have you moved up from not reading cites to not reading posts? There’s a great big quote block at the end of the post you quoted. It contains stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/188 "2016-06-13T19:13:56Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I seem to be doing all the work here so here goes: [LGBT people and Islam - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam) “I seem to be doing all the work here” = “After researching a topic to the extent of finding a story, reading the headline and nothing else including the date of the story, being called on not reading the story and still not reading the story, being called on not reading the story again and not reading the story again and not reading other stories, being called out on not reading stories and complaining that these stories keep being provided, ugh, I don’t want to click through links and have to read things, gosh, fine, I’ll actually look up that one original guy and his story!” > [@](#): > > So, no gay mosques, no gay friendly mosque in France. It’s a prayer room in a Buddhist temple and it was condemned by the Grand Mosque of Paris. According to a link you provided, the guy who started the prayer room now lives in South Africa. I’m a bit tired of doing your work for you. Does this prayer room in a Buddhist temple even still exist? Why is my job to find out? You want me to track the guy down and give him a call? It’s your job because you’ve claimed it as your job - those times you’ve asked questions about the existence of gay mosques in this thread, or how long they’d last. You asked those questions. Personally speaking, when I have a question, I attempt to find an answer to that question. I wasn’t aware that thinking you might want to answer questions you had was a grand, operatic tragedy, requiring of you great toil. They’re \*your \*questions. If you don’t want to find answers to them, that’s fine; you don’t have to ask them if you don’t want to. > [@](#): > > What’s that got to do with LGBT issues? The relevance is your acceptance of Paris Imams’ views on gay mosques. I’m curious to see if your acceptance of their authority on matters of Islam extends to an acceptance of their authority on matters of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/189 "2016-06-13T19:44:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It’s a shame that you’re happy to rest on your assumption that no such statements exist instead of actively looking for them. > > I’ve seen half-a-dozen letters from Imams saying things along the lines of members of the LGBT community having the right to live as they wish in a free society and calling for an end to the preaching of hate against them. I’m not going to bother going through the tweets and Facebook posts to find you links, though. If all your years of following the issue lead you to believe that 99.99999999% of Muslims are bigots, a few more pieces of counter-evidence aren’t going to change your mind. Whoa, I never said 99.99% of Muslims are anything. Ever heard of a gay mosque? Nope. No one has. Such a thing does not exist. Ever heard of a gay-friendly mosque? A handful exist. Out of how many Mosques in the world, how many are gay-friendly? What percent would that be? I’m guessing pretty close to 99.99% aren’t. Not really my job to find out. Progress happens. Great. Never said it doesn’t. There is a gay-tolerant movement within Islam. Great. Never said there wasn’t. How big and influential is it, in Islam? Is it there? Sure. Is it growing? I don’t know. I assume or at least hope it is. In Iran they perform lots of sex-change operations. Does that mean Iran is pro-LGBT? I doubt it. They’re offering sex-changes to change men into women so they aren’t committing homosexual sin anymore. Is this progress? I don’t know. Why don’t you tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/190 "2016-06-13T19:57:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Take it up with Freedom House. Many countries rated as “free” also persist in having anti-LGBT laws. I’m not saying this to excuse those nations – such as how in the United States allows someone to be fired from their job simply for being homosexual – but the rating of “free” by Freedom House is a general, not perfect, indication of the country’s respect for political and press freedom. Then why did you post the info then? “Hey, here’s a site from some place that may or may not be saying something about what the topic may or may not be. So There!” :dubious::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/191 "2016-06-13T20:00:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Then why did you post the info then? “Hey, here’s a site from some place that may or may not be saying something about what the topic may or may not be. So There!” :dubious::rolleyes: If you read my post, I quoted another poster who said that no Muslim country was democratic. I then said once again that I was responding to that point. I think I was perfectly clear what I was responding to in each of my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/192 "2016-06-13T20:01:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And…how exactly do you expect to see this? Have you ever been inside a mosque? It may not be working very well but there are interfaith organizations around the world that strive to promote tolerance. For instance: > [@](#): > > Doha International Center for Interfaith Dialogue was established as a result of a recommendation of the Fifth Doha Interfaith Conference on May 2007 in Doha. The center was opened officially in May 2008. The main role of the centre will primarily be to spread the culture of dialogue, the peaceful coexistence of humanity and the acceptance of others. > > SOURCE: [http://www.dicid.org/english/](http://www.dicid.org/english/) You probably have interfaith organizations near you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/193 "2016-06-13T20:05:24Z")
Wouldn’t you know it… Wikipedia has an article on [“LGBT in Islam”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/194 "2016-06-13T20:13:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wouldn’t you know it… Wikipedia has an article on [“LGBT in Islam”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam) Wouldn’t you know I already posted it. Channeling **Revenant Threshold** , don’t you ever read my links? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/195 "2016-06-13T20:16:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you read my post, I quoted another poster who said that no Muslim country was democratic. I then said once again that I was responding to that point. I think I was perfectly clear what I was responding to in each of my posts. According to your post, you wanted to “broaden the discussion” which I took to mean looking past the fact that some Muslim countries were democratic. I mean, a simple “Tunisia is democratic” would have sufficed, but you linked to the Freedom House as a way to “broaden the discussion”. What were you broadening it to, if now you say you were just rebutting the “There are no Muslim democracies” statement? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/196 "2016-06-13T20:24:30Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Wouldn’t you know I already posted it. Channeling **Revenant Threshold** , don’t you ever read my links? 🙂 Generally, no, I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/197 "2016-06-13T20:36:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > According to your post, you wanted to “broaden the discussion” which I took to mean looking past the fact that some Muslim countries were democratic. I mean, a simple “Tunisia is democratic” would have sufficed, but you linked to the Freedom House as a way to “broaden the discussion”. Broaden it from whether the countries in question are democracies – which is a nearly meaningless term that suits roughly 3 out of every 4 governments on this planet – to whether those governments actually embrace democratic principles as judged by a non-partisan and generally respected thinktank. For example, Azerbaijan might be technically regarded as a democracy because there are periodic elections for the parliament, but it functions as a one-party state in which opponents are repressed and is labeled by Freedom House as “not free.” And if you look at the Freedom House website for a country like Tunisia, the criticism you have rightly pointed out is literally right there. It judges that Tunisia has good political freedoms (right to vote, etc) and merely middle-of-the-road respect for individual civil rights. The report says: > [@](#): > > The constitution refers to state protections for persons with special needs, prohibiting all forms of discrimination and providing aid to integrate them into society. It also guarantees the right to culture for all citizens, and calls for the state to create a culture of diversity. However, LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) people continue to face discrimination in law and society. Article 230 of the penal code prescribes up to three years in prison for “sodomy.” > [@Slash1972](#): > > What were you broadening it to, if **now you say** you were just rebutting the “There are no Muslim democracies” statement? I am not “now” saying I was rebutting the “there are no Muslim democracies” statement. That’s literally been my only contribution to this thread. I said exactly what I was doing in my very first post. It’s right there, just read it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/198 "2016-06-13T20:39:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Interesting to note that Nigeria is at 1%, despite being basically 50/50 Muslim and Christian. It’s almost as if there are other factors at play, like [where](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/04/22/3649935/poll-american-muslims-supportive-sex-marriage-white-evangelical-christians/) you live. Or what kind of government runs the place, or what culture you’re in… That down trodden 98% should probably emigrate. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/199 "2016-06-13T22:16:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And…how exactly do you expect to see this? Have you ever been inside a mosque? I think I would expect to see it when I see / hear fewer Muslims having intolerant attitudes towards homosexuality and stop expressing ambiguous attitudes toward violence. Yes, I know what I’m saying doesn’t apply to all or even a majority of Muslims, but it doesn’t have to be anywhere close to a majority before it begins to cause problems. I’ve said similar things about American Christianity and their treatment of the abortion debate. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/200 "2016-06-13T22:24:42Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Okay, fine, so I ask again what I’ve asked on this board before: if so, what do we do about it? Well if it were up to me I would say that we should treat all monotheistic religions as the superstitious bullshit that they are, but that’s probably a non-starter. Short of that, if we want to respect and value the cultural significance of religion, then I’m fine with that. I don’t seek to demonize any religion or faith, but I don’t think we should be afraid to socially and politically corrosive sets of beliefs, either. > [@Leaper](#): > > Or specifically, what should our government do about it? Our government should probably stop the duplicity of claiming to be fighting extremism while simultaneously funding it and looking the other way when “allies” commit atrocities right under our noses, dare us to call them out, and try to bully the UN into whitewashing terrorist black lists. > [@Leaper](#): > > There are plenty of voters out there, unfortunately, for whom the answer is “ban Islam in the U.S., expel Muslims, and bomb Mecca,” which, while insane and evil, would actually practically address the issue at hand. If you don’t believe we should do that, what should we do? Tell Middle Eastern leaders not to practice their religion that way anymore? Yes, we absolutely need to start pressuring Middle Eastern leaders (and elsewhere) not to practice religion that way. But it only means something if we put our money where our mouth is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=11)