# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/21 "2016-06-12T18:57:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I just googled up “gay muslim group” and the first thing that came up was “[Muslim states block gay groups from U.N. AIDS meeting](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-lgbt-aids-idUSKCN0Y827F).” I just googled up “gay muslim group”. Where I am, the first result appears to be a defunct page for [an LGBT Muslim support group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fatiha_Foundation). Of the top ten results, seven (including that one) are either about LGBT Muslims/Islamic groups or supportive of the same. Two are about anti-gay Muslim activities in the vein of your example. One of them is Stormfront, so I hope you’ll understand that I didn’t click through to see exactly what they were talking about. “I put this into Google and guess what I found” is rarely a good argument for anything except “I bet I can find this on Google.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/22 "2016-06-12T18:58:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As a gay man who survived decades of discrimination, how can you not recognize that it’s just as evil when you do it to others, as it is when they do it to you? Despising an evil _ideology_ is not the same despising a _person_. Do people really not understand the difference between criticizing bad ideas and racism? Islamophobia is an idiotic term, and the OP is quite correct to mock it. The only **moral** stand in my opinion is to hate the evil ideology of all mainstream Islam that I’m aware of (i.e. all the ones that incorporate hateful bigotry), along with the ideology of White Supremacy, the ideology of Naziism and whatever other terrible ideas are out there. I grant that there is some degree to which there is notion of being “culturally Islamic” which can muddy the waters. But the term Islamophobia was created precisely for the purpose of the muddying those waters, in order to try to render Islamic _ideology_ immune from criticism for fear that critics will be tagged as a racist. And many on the Left have fallen for this, hook line and sinker. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/23 "2016-06-12T18:58:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As a gay man who survived decades of discrimination, how can you not recognize that it’s just as evil when you do it to others, as it is when they do it to you? Because being gay is a large part intrinsic whereas people can choose to be part of a primitive, superstitious cult? Why people can’t distinguish between biology which one can’t choose and poisonous ideology, protected by the label “religion”, is baffling. TruthSeeker2 got a mod warning for hate speech. That’s as silly as getting a warning for being anti-fascist. Religion is nothing more than ideology with fancy dressings. And the fact that an honest critique can be labeled hate speech is Orwellian. And this is not a specific critique of modding. This is a critique on how poisonous dogma gets a pass because silly men wear silly hats and chant silly prayers. Oh and will bomb you or decapitate you if you offend them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/24 "2016-06-12T18:59:11Z")
The vast majority of Muslims, just like the vast majority of humanity, have no interest in harming others, and are chiefly concerned about taking care of themselves and their families. The best way, IMO, to fight radicalism within Islam _is to get these hundreds of millions of Muslims on our side 100% in the fight against those advocating hatred and violence_. When slurs and negative generalizations are thrown out about Islam as a whole, and Muslims as a massive group, then it just makes it a bit more likely that some of these peaceful Muslims will look at the West in general with fear and be less likely to assist in the fight against the radical violence of certain factions within Islam. Strategically, maligning Islam as a whole has no value, and actually could harm the effort to fight radical violence, while nuanced statements and reaching out to peaceful Muslims (including the vast majority in the United States) can help this effort. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/25 "2016-06-12T19:00:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It took me about 10 seconds to find this poll. There are many more equally disturbing ones. > > **Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds** > > [Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds | British identity and society | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law) I have to admit I’m skeptical of a poll where I don’t get to see the questions and methodology. Could I ask you (or **Valteron** , really) to wade through the many more equally disturbing ones to find a link that shares it? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/26 "2016-06-12T19:04:05Z")
So, the Muslims are behind homophobia–even expressed by other groups. Sorry, my derision is well earned. [From Right Wing Watch:](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/cruz-tries-rewrite-history-claims-he-denounced-radical-kill-gays-pastor) > [@](#): > > Last year, Sen. Ted Cruz, his father Rafael Cruz, and two of his then-rivals in the Republican presidential race attended a “religious liberty” conference in Iowa hosted by Kevin Swanson, a radical pastor who had a long record of viciously anti-gay rhetoric, which he continued at the conference itself by expounding at length about his view that the Bible commands governments to put gay people to death. > > Before the conference, we publicized Swanson’s history — including his discussions of the death penalty for gay people — leading one Republican presidential candidate, Ben Carson, to drop out of the conference. Cruz’s people later tried to distance him from this hateful creep. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/27 "2016-06-12T19:05:15Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I admit that I am anticipating arguments that have not yet been made, but there is a certain justification to doing this when you anticipate the same, stupid arguments to be trotted out that you have heard a million times. No, there isn’t. The one reasoning that you give - that you anticipate having to argue against points that you’ve already argued against before - falls completely down since you well-poisoned and yet _still received those arguments anyway._ And still argued back against them in turn. You can’t claim you’re justified in using a tactic to avoid something when you have to do that selfsame something in the same post, and elsewhere. It’s like saying “But if I didn’t do that thing, someone might have hit me in the face!” while sporting a black eye. That isn’t to mention arguments against well-poisoning as a tactic. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/28 "2016-06-12T19:08:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The vast majority of Muslims, just like the vast majority of humanity, have no interest in harming others, and are chiefly concerned about taking care of themselves and their families. The best way, IMO, to fight radicalism within Islam _is to get these hundreds of millions of Muslims on our side 100% in the fight against those advocating hatred and violence_. When slurs and negative generalizations are thrown out about Islam as a whole, and Muslims as a massive group, then it just makes it a bit more likely that some of these peaceful Muslims will look at the West in general with fear and be less likely to assist in the fight against the radical violence of certain factions within Islam. > > Strategically, maligning Islam as a whole has no value, and actually could harm the effort to fight radical violence, while nuanced statements and reaching out to peaceful Muslims (including the vast majority in the United States) can help this effort. This is true. But Islam as an ideology is a bit more resilient, seemingly, to modernization than the other major religions. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/29 "2016-06-12T19:11:42Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I just googled up “gay muslim group”. Where I am, the first result appears to be a defunct page for [an LGBT Muslim support group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fatiha_Foundation). Of the top ten results, seven (including that one) are either about LGBT Muslims/Islamic groups or supportive of the same. Two are about anti-gay Muslim activities in the vein of your example. One of them is Stormfront, so I hope you’ll understand that I didn’t click through to see exactly what they were talking about. > > “I put this into Google and guess what I found” is rarely a good argument for anything except “I bet I can find this on Google.” A support group? Defunct? Why would anyone gather together in a “support group” I can’t help but wonder. If we could count up all the members of gay muslim support groups, what percent of Islam would that be, do you think? Ever heard of a gay mosque? Me neither. Apparently there’s a Muslim guy in France who wants to open one. I wonder how long that place would last, and what security they’d have to have. Meanwhile, there are gay Christian places of worship all over, and an ever-increasing number of mainstream Christian churches accepting gays, and Jewish gay this and gay that all over the place, and even the Pope has said flat out “love gays.” ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/30 "2016-06-12T19:13:10Z")
_I told everyone I was going to piss all over the room and then they got mad when I pissed all over the room. Such derision is so predictable. Where’s the understanding?_ ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/31 "2016-06-12T19:13:26Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I have to admit I’m skeptical of a poll where I don’t get to see the questions and methodology. Could I ask you (or **Valteron** , really) to wade through the many more equally disturbing ones to find a link that shares it? You can download full data and methodology of this particular poll here. > **[The Human Understanding Agency | Walnut Unlimited](https://walnutunlimited.com/)** > > We are more than a research agency, we are Walnut: The human understanding agency. We understand human behaviour at the deepest level. If you want more, it’s easy enough to Google them. Although some results are sensationalized in the press, we are not talking about a small number of biased polls conducted by right wing groups here. Reputable polls of British Muslims consistently show frightening levels of support for bigotry, extremism and even terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/32 "2016-06-12T19:18:14Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > So frigghin’ what if not every single Muslim is homophobic and bigoted? Does it have to be every single Muslim to prove that Islam is homophobic? > > What does it mean to you when polls show that a majority of British Muslims want homosexuality RECRIMINALIZED in Britain? What percentage of regularly practicing christians in the UK want homosexuality recrimininalized? Here in the US, [only 54% of Christians think homosexuality should be accepted by society](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/). Among evangelical protestants, only 36% think it should be accepted, which lets me think that the majority believe it should be illegal. As a gay man I think you should be afraid of religious people and Russians, as acceptance of homosexuality is [inversely correlated with those two traits](http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/06/Revised-Report-Images-6.png). ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/33 "2016-06-12T19:20:55Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Meanwhile, there are gay Christian places of worship all over, and an ever-increasing number of mainstream Christian churches accepting gays, and Jewish gay this and gay that all over the place, and even the Pope has said flat out “love gays.” Sure, but I still say that the west advanced socially first, and then religion followed, while Islam is predominant mostly in poorer, less socially advanced countries. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/34 "2016-06-12T19:23:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because being gay is a large part intrinsic whereas people can choose to be part of a primitive, superstitious cult? Why people can’t distinguish between biology which one can’t choose and poisonous ideology, protected by the label “religion”, is baffling. TruthSeeker2 got a mod warning for hate speech. That’s as silly as getting a warning for being anti-fascist. Religion is nothing more than ideology with fancy dressings. And the fact that an honest critique can be labeled hate speech is Orwellian. And this is not a specific critique of modding. This is a critique on how poisonous dogma gets a pass because silly men wear silly hats and chant silly prayers. Oh and will bomb you or decapitate you if you offend them. I agree with most of what you say but for one thing: why does it matter if sexual orientation or gender identity is a _choice_ or not? If all humans were bisexual, and some proportion chose gay relationships, that would not justify hateful bigotry. The difference is between autonomous social choices among consenting adults that harm noone and are nobody else’s business; and an ideology of evil bigotry that chooses to persecute people for \*either \*their personal nature or their harmless personal choices. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/35 "2016-06-12T19:27:31Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > What percentage of regularly practicing christians in the UK want homosexuality recrimininalized? > > Here in the US, [only 54% of Christians think homosexuality should be accepted by society](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/). Among evangelical protestants, only 36% think it should be accepted, which lets me think that the majority believe it should be illegal. > > As a gay man I think you should be afraid of religious people and Russians, as acceptance of homosexuality is [inversely correlated with those two traits](http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/06/Revised-Report-Images-6.png). Well, except that the US has a constitution and rule of law that stops those Christians doing what they would like to do. But, yes, I’m certainly under do illusion about what would happen to LGBT in a Christian theocracy. It **is** happening in some African countries. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/36 "2016-06-12T19:30:06Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > (There is uncertainty as to the present status of law in Uganda regarding the death penalty and gays, so feel free to trot that country out as if one oddball exception contradicts the overall facts). Uganda is hardly an oddball exception. **[ It’s Not Just Uganda: Behind the Christian Right’s Onslaught in Africa](http://www.thenation.com/article/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa/)**: > [@](#): > > But such groups aren’t just active in Uganda. They have promoted antigay legislation in Kenya, Nigeria and Zimbabwe, just to name a few other places. The support ranges from popular agitation and sideline cheerleading to outright intervention. > > In 2010, for example, when Zimbabwe began the process of drafting a new constitution, the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), a Christian law firm founded by evangelist Pat Robertson, launched a Zimbabwean counterpart called the African Centre for Law and Justice. The outpost trained lawyers for the express purpose of putting a Christian stamp on the draft of the new constitution. > > The African Centre joined forces with the Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe (EFZ), an indigenous organization, to promote constitutional language affirming that Zimbabwe is a Christian nation and ensuring that homosexuality remained illegal. … ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/37 "2016-06-12T19:32:11Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > A support group? Defunct? Why would anyone gather together in a “support group” I can’t help but wonder. I would imagine because there are enough people around requiring support to sustain one. > [@](#): > > If we could count up all the members of gay muslim support groups, what percent of Islam would that be, do you think? I do not know. What percentage of Islam are members of anti-gay muslim hate groups? When do we get to pit our hypothetical numbers against each other? > [@](#): > > Ever heard of a gay mosque? Me neither. Apparently there’s a Muslim guy in France who wants to open one. I wonder how long that place would last, and what security they’d have to have. You’ve let yourself down in your Googling again. A very quick check by me reveals that if we’re talking about the same person, the Muslim guy in question did want to open a gay mosque - in 2012. The latest I can find out about this is that it was still open in 2014. In the middle of Googling about him I also came across [this piece](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/life-as-a-gay-imam-isnt-as-bad-as-it-sounds), which also interviews a gay imam of a mosque in Washington, DC “which welcomes all cultures and sexual orientations”, as well as another leader of a support group. My Googling of just “gay mosques” reveals gay mosques and other Islamic and inclusive groups in a number of places across the world. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, there are gay Christian places of worship all over, and an ever-increasing number of mainstream Christian churches accepting gays, and Jewish gay this and gay that all over the place, and even the Pope has said flat out “love gays.” If you count up all the members of gay Christian support groups, what percent of Christianity would that be? I actually don’t know, but I have to be concerned that going by what you’ve personally heard of isn’t the greatest metric. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/38 "2016-06-12T19:32:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > This is true. But Islam as an ideology is a bit more resilient, seemingly, to modernization than the other major religions. Possibly – but I think that negative generalizations and attacks on Islam as a whole hurt the effort to modernize those groups and aspects within Islam that have not yet joined the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/39 "2016-06-12T19:34:49Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well, except that the US has a constitution and rule of law that stops those Christians doing what they would like to do. But, yes, I’m certainly under do illusion about what would happen to LGBT in a Christian theocracy. It **is** happening in some African countries. There’s been sodomy laws in the US for as long as there’s been a Constitution and a rule of law. In fact, there are sodomy laws in 17 U.S. states right this moment. So I can’t say it’s effectivity has been all that immediate. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/40 "2016-06-12T19:36:08Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Ever heard of a gay mosque? Me neither. [Progressive Muslims Launch Gay-Friendly, Women-Led Mosques In Attempt To Reform American Islam](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/progressive-muslims-launch-gay-friendly-women-led-mosques_n_1368460.html) [5 Imams Who Are Openly Gay](http://islamandhomosexuality.com/5-imams-openly-gay/) [Where Can Queer Muslims Go to Pray?](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/queer-muslim-american-prayer/412747/) [Progressive Mosques Gain Ground in America](http://theislamicmonthly.com/progressive-mosques-gain-ground-in-america/) These are just a few top Google hits for “gay mosque”. To be honest, I hadn’t heard of gay churches either, but that obviously didn’t mean they didn’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=3)