# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/381 "2016-06-17T14:18:19Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Again, you claim to have conceded the point that the majority of the Muslim world, however defined, has a huge problem with anti-LGBT bigotry. No, again, I claim to have **deliberately asserted** that point throughout this thread. And I do wish you would stop continuing to misrepresent what I say even after I’ve corrected you on it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/382 "2016-06-17T14:23:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: More misrepresentation on your part. > > What I said is that I don’t see any reason why **a tiny percentage of the world’s Muslims in one country** shouldn’t have as much right to be considered “representative” of the world’s Muslims as **an equally tiny percentage of the world’s Muslims in a different country**. Of course that’s what you said. You were comparing the U.S. to Qatar, Lebanon, etc., and you claimed that you could see no reason for any difference in the significance of the views of those populations. I didn’t “misrepresent” that. I told you the obvious possible reason - that the number of Muslims as a percentage of the total population in each country is very different. In the U.S. around 1%, in the other countries much higher. Obviously I can’t say how much difference this makes, but it’s disingenuous to suggest that you can’t imagine a reason. The term “representative” means typical. The U.S. Muslim population is highly atypical in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/383 "2016-06-17T14:24:29Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Neither one of us is wielding facts. Well, except for the one of us who cited and linked to actual data about the opinions of Bangladeshi Muslims (who constitute over 10% of **all** the world’s Muslims, by the way) concerning immigration to the US, of course. [QUOTE=nachtmusick] Muslims who strive to cross mountains and oceans to reside in the Land of the Great Satan might not be quite as devout [/QUOTE] Oh okay, so you’re saying that what makes a particular Muslim population “representative” of Muslims as a whole is not its numerical percentage, but rather its “devoutness”? (Specifically, the sort of “devoutness” that involves calling the US “the Great Satan”?) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/384 "2016-06-17T14:27:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No. I said that one political doctrine can’t be reinterpreted into a **different** political doctrine I’m sorry but that’s a simple assertion without evidence. Why can a political doctrine not be re-interpreted into a different political doctrine? Do we not see that all the time? Do we not see political schism’s and fractures as a matter of course? Were there no “moderate” nazis? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/385 "2016-06-17T14:28:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Of course that’s what you said. You were comparing the U.S. to Qatar, Lebanon, etc., and you claimed that you could see no reason for any difference. I did not say I could see **no reason for any difference**. Of course there are differences between different Muslim populations. What I said is that I think **the Muslim populations in all those countries have an equal right to be considered “representative” of the faith that they share** , and I see no reason to deny that right selectively. [QUOTE=Riemann] I didn’t “misrepresent” that. [/quote] Indeed you did. [QUOTE=Riemann] I told you the obvious possible reason - that the number of Muslims as a percentage of the total population in each country is very different. [/quote] Yes, I know. Which is why I then asked you: > [@Kimstu](#): > > Okay, so how “non-tiny” does such a minority have to be before it can validly claim to be at least somewhat “representative” of the world’s Muslims? > > Because India, for example, is less than 15% Muslim, yet that minority of the Indian population contains nearly 11% of the entire global population of Muslims. > > What factors, in your opinion, make a Muslim population more versus less “representative” of Muslims as a group? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/386 "2016-06-17T14:30:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Why can a political doctrine not be re-interpreted into a different political doctrine? Do we not see that all the time? Do we not see political schism’s and fractures as a matter of course? Were there no “moderate” nazis? Were there liberal democratic Nazis? If you can point me to an example of a society that is simultaneously fascist and liberal democratic, I will happily modify my position. My point at present, though, is simply that it’s possible for a society to be, say, both fascist **and** majority-Christian, or both liberal democratic **and** majority-Christian, but not possible for a society to be both fascist and liberal democratic. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/387 "2016-06-17T14:37:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What I said is that I think **the Muslim populations in all those countries have an equal right to be considered “representative” of the faith that they share** , and I see no reason to deny that right selectively. Statistics by ideology doesn’t work any better than biology by ideology or physics by ideology. But I see that you’ve managed to move the argument to an unimportant detail about precisely what proportion of worldwide Muslims hold progressive vs bigoted views. Why does that matter if we agree that there is a big problem with homophobia in at least some large part of the Muslim world? Isn’t it more important to consider the solutions to that problem? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/388 "2016-06-17T17:16:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Statistics by ideology doesn’t work any better than biology by ideology or physics by ideology. > > But I see that you’ve managed to move the argument to an unimportant detail about precisely what proportion of worldwide Muslims hold progressive vs bigoted views. Why does that matter if we agree that there is a big problem with homophobia in at least some large part of the Muslim world? Isn’t it more important to consider the solutions to that problem? I thought the issue was this: is there something about Islam, and Muslims generally, that predisposes them to homophobia, and prevents them from discarding homophobia? For example, some adherence to fundamental doctrines of the religion? Or, on the other hand, is homophobia tied to other issues - such as the culture of particular countries, levels of education, and poverty? For someone genuinely concerned about the “solutions to the problem” it is first necessary to determine what is causing the problem. Some in this thread see the problem as one inherent in Islamic doctrine, that can’t be gotten rid of without, in effect, getting rid of Islam. These are the folks who are most anxious to prevent Muslim immigration. Such an urge is sensible, on the assumption that the problem is inherent in Islam, and thus a person who is Muslim is likely to demonstrate the problem. However, the better view on the evidence is that this position is incorrect. The reasoning: 1. Actual evidence from polls demonstrates that Muslims who are located in America or the West generally (aside from that one British poll, which is questioned upthread) typically acculturate to the Western range views on homosexuality. Thus, it would appear that there is nothing essential about being Islamic that compels homophobia. 2. Many Islamic-majority countries are of course deeply homophobic. But then, so are many non-Islamic countries – for example, Jamaica. Jamaica is majority Protestant - and then, so is Sweden. Yet they have diametrically opposed trends in acceptance of homosexuality. The reasonable conclusion is that acceptance of homosexuality is correlated to a bunch of different factors, of which choice of religion is only one. 1. All of the three major monotheistic religions contain holy tests denouncing homosexuality in more or less absolute terms. Judaism is one of the worst offenders in this category, as male gay acts are expressly punishable by death in Leviticus. Yet Jews in some places (such as America and Israel) are among the most liberal in attitudes to homosexuality. The reasonable conclusion is that virulence of hatred in religious texts does not necessarily translate into modern-day homophobia. 1. It is undoubtedly true that certain sects of Islam are, in the present day, preaching hatred of homosexuality; and that these sects are large and influential. The issue is then why these sects became large and influential. They are a relatively new phenomenon–in the middle of the 20th century, one would not have guessed at their size and influence: in the Arab world at least, socialism and nationalism were far more influential, and homophobia was more of a cultural remnant than it was religiously motivated. I would suggest that the size and influence of these religious fundamentalist movements is a product of several forces - Wahhabi preaching, fed by Saudi money for one; the abject failure of Arab nationalism and socialism, for another. Probably more besides. The point here is that it is not an inevitable outgrowth of Islam, any more than (say) Jewish liberalism is an inevitable outgrowth of Judaism. It is perfectly possible for it to be reversed, given the right conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/389 "2016-06-17T18:27:03Z")
I agree that a deeper analysis of all aspects of what’s happening is worthwhile. However, the object is not to show that any one culture is theoretically better or worse at sustaining homophobia than any other, or that any one religion is in principle better or worse. What does it matter whether in principle an ideology can be reformed? Of course they all can, but the question is what in practice is currently responsible for sustaining the bad ideas in the world right now? If we accept (as I hope we all do) that homophobia is not innate, then it is culturally transmitted somehow from one generation to the next. If we look at various societies around the world, in every society with rampant homophobia there must be some mechanism of cultural transmission, undoubtedly not always the same. As for poverty, which is extremely highly correlated with homophobia in all societies regardless of religion – clearly, less poverty is always better. But poverty does not communicate ideas, a kid does not learn to be homophobic be “being poor”. I suppose you could have some model where poor people desperately want to lash out at some scapegoat within their own society, and the target always tends to be homosexuals. But surely it’s more plausible that a higher standard of living is correlated with an embrace of modern secular moral values, and an abandonment of older cultural traditions that were sustaining homophobia. It seems to me that our agenda should be to identify all of the different cultural mechanisms that actually sustain and transmit these bad ideas within the various societies in the world and oppose them all. So, what’s happening in the vast majority of Muslim-majority nations that do exhibit extreme homophobia? It seems astonishing to me that some Western liberals desperately want to deny the fact that in these societies the obvious mechanism of cultural transmission is Islamic ideology in its current form. Almost everyone in these countries adheres to Islam; the penalty for apostasy is somewhere between severe ostracism and death; virtually all forms of Islam maintain that the scriptures are the sacred and perfect word of God; and the scriptures say explicitly that homosexuality is immoral and that homosexuals should be killed. Moreover, Muslims themselves state quite clearly and consistently that their homophobia derives from their religious beliefs. Are we so patronizing to people with pigmented skin that we don’t believe they know their own motivations? In other countries, the mechanism of cultural transmission is clearly something different. Often fundamental Christianity, of course. And the ideas are not always transmitted under the banner of religion, as in a secular but highly homophobic country like China. But so what? We should be opposing the transmission of bad ideas wherever we see them, combating all cultural manifestations of homophobic ideas. Islamic ideology in most of its current forms is surely the most prevalent of these. We must not shy away from acknowledging that, and lending our support to the moderate Muslims who are trying to reform Islamic ideology into something more civilized. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/390 "2016-06-17T18:36:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It seems astonishing to me that some Western liberals desperately want to deny the fact that in these societies the obvious mechanism of cultural transmission is Islamic ideology in its current form. If it is astonishing to you that someone would hold a particular position, your first reaction ought to be to consider whether they actually hold that position. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/391 "2016-06-17T18:37:42Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Does your native intellect not whisper to you that Muslims who strive to cross mountains and oceans to reside in the Land of the Great Satan might not be quite as devout as those who stand fast beneath the theocracies that they grew up in? My native intellect whispers to me that Muslims who immigrate to the U.S. are more likely to belong to [the categories to whom we’ll give an immigrant visa](https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/all-visa-categories.html) (educational attainment, employment prospects, familial relationship to U.S. citizens or legal residents, Afghan translators, etc.). Most Muslims around the world, no matter how devout or non-devout they are or how much they want to come to the U.S., won’t be allowed in under current U.S. policy. And neither the Koran nor the hadith say anything about the U.S. being the Land of the Great Satan–that’s a **political** argument, an epithet popularized by the Ayatollah Khomeini in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/392 "2016-06-17T18:46:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > If it is astonishing to you that someone would hold a particular position, your first reaction ought to be to consider whether they actually hold that position. You really think that it would take me a long time to find a “liberal” who would claim that we can’t criticize the bad ideas espoused by Islamic ideology because it’s Islamophobic to do that, because colonial history, because whattabout Christian ideology? I’m not suggesting **Malthus** said that, but if you think that’s a straw man, you haven’t been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/393 "2016-06-17T18:57:41Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You really think that it would take me a long time to find a “liberal” who would claim that we can’t criticize the bad ideas espoused by Islamic ideology because it’s Islamophobic to do that, because colonial history, because whattabout Christian ideology? That’s a different idea from the one you just described and I addressed–which was the idea that “in these societies the obvious mechanism of cultural transmission [of homophobia] is Islamic ideology in its current form.” But I would also apply my argument to this different idea as well. I don’t think any substantial number of people believe it is categorically Islamophobic to criticize bad ideas within Islamic ideology. Are any such people present in this thread? Do any such people hold power in any society? If not, why do you need to address the theoretical holders of this silly idea? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/394 "2016-06-17T20:04:47Z")
> **[Regressive left](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left)** > > The regressive left (also called regressive liberals or regressive leftists) is a term for a branch of left-wing politics that is accused of being accepting of or sympathetic to views that conflict with liberal principles, particularly by tolerating Islamism. > The British political activist Maajid Nawaz,\[note 1\] American political talk-show hosts such as Bill Maher and Dave Rubin,\[note 2\] and New Atheist writers like Sam Harris\[note 3\] and Richard Dawkins are among those who have used the term... > **[Moderate Muslim Maajid Nawaz vilified by Left for trying to reform Islam](https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2015/09/23/moderate-muslim-maajid-nawaz-vilified-by-left-for-trying-to-reform-islam/)** > > I’ll begin by quoting myself on a post I did about Maajid Nawaz this summer—a post about how the British left has vilified him: “If anyone has the street cred and chops to comment on ra… > **[A British student union defends ISIS again, no-platforms an ISIS critic](https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2015/11/06/britains-national-union-of-students-defends-isis-again-no-platforms-an-isis-critic/)** > > If you want to talk about the “regressive Left,” the poster child would be Britain’s university Student Unions, which have a shameful record of suppressing free speech, especially… > **[The death of liberalism: Goldsmiths feminists ally with Muslims opposing...](https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2015/12/03/the-death-of-liberalism-goldsmiths-feminists-ally-with-muslims-opposing-feminist-speaker-maryam-namazie/)** > > As I mentioned yesterday, ex-Muslim Maryam Namazie spoke at London’s Goldsmiths College on the topic “Apostasy, blasphemy and free expression in the age of ISIS,” and her talk was… The above examples are particularly egregious cases of liberals silencing criticism of Islam, and of course I wouldn’t claim that people on this thread are so extreme. But throughout this thread, as in all such discussions among liberals, there’s a persistent theme from some liberals of wanting to minimize and excuse the major _proximate_ cause of homophobia in the Muslim world - Islamic doctrine - because there is some deeper _ultimate cause_ or exacerbating factor to be found in history or politics or social circumstances; or to minimize and excuse it because other religions are just as bad. We don’t treat (say) fundamentalist Christianity with kid gloves like this, we hold people’s feet to the fire for the views that they currently hold, whatever the ultimate etiology of those views. And I think it’s counterproductive to treat Islamic ideology any differently. It undermines moderates who seek refom of Islam, and it can lend apparent credibility to extreme reactions from **real** racists like Trump. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/395 "2016-06-17T20:05:28Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You really think that it would take me a long time to find a “liberal” who would claim that we can’t criticize the bad ideas espoused by Islamic ideology because it’s Islamophobic to do that, because colonial history, because whattabout Christian ideology? In this thread? Yeah, I think it would take you a long time. Like, forever. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/396 "2016-06-17T20:17:05Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > . . . Does your native intellect not whisper to you that Muslims who strive to cross mountains and oceans to reside in the Land of the Great Satan might not be quite as devout as those who stand fast beneath the theocracies that they grew up in? Huh? How the hell do you reason that? Were the Puritans who crossed an ocean to settle in the Americas “less devout” than those who stayed home? Why would travelling to a far land make someone “less devout” than those who don’t? This is really weird reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/397 "2016-06-17T20:18:40Z")
> [@andros](#): > > In this thread? Yeah, I think it would take you a long time. Like, forever. Well great, then I’m glad we’re all on the same page. So no need to mention the failings of Christianity or our ugly colonial past again, right? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/398 "2016-06-17T20:25:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well great, then I’m glad we’re all on the same page. > So no need to mention the failings of Christianity or our ugly colonial past again, right? Those are some speedy wheels you have on those goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/399 "2016-06-17T20:27:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Huh? How the hell do you reason that? Were the Puritans who crossed an ocean to settle in the Americas “less devout” than those who stayed home? Why would travelling to a far land make someone “less devout” than those who don’t? This is really weird reasoning. That is a different situation entirely. The puritans were not moving to a land with a known ,existing culture and structure, modern day muslims are. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/400 "2016-06-17T20:34:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Those are some speedy wheels you have on those goalposts. What, mentioning two of the three things in my comment that you quoted, two things that have been recurring themes in this thread? As for the third one, I agree that there have been no explicit Islamophobia accusations in this thread. But such accusations are common from the regressive left in attempting to silence criticism of Islamic doctrine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=21)