# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/41 "2016-06-12T19:38:46Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > There’s been sodomy laws in the US for as long as there’s been a Constitution and a rule of law. In fact, there are sodomy laws in 17 U.S. states right this moment. So I can’t say it’s effectivity has been all that immediate. I dount that you are suggesting that a gay man should feel equally safe in [insert almost any Muslim majority country here] as he would be in the U.S.? So let’s not make the perfect the enemy of the good. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/42 "2016-06-12T19:40:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I agree with most of what you say but for one thing: why does it matter if sexual orientation or gender identity is a _choice_ or not? If all humans were bisexual, and some proportion chose gay relationships, that would not justify hateful bigotry. The difference is between autonomous social choices among consenting adults that harm noone and are nobody else’s business; and an ideology of evil bigotry that chooses to persecute people for \*either \*their personal nature or their harmless personal choices. Choice, with the assumption that it’s real, has a bearing on how folks are judged. Now I personally don’t have an issue with straight, gay, or bisexual people choice or no choice. But the fact that it’s biological is part of the reason why reason is trumping Puritanism in the modern age. I also feel pedophilia is biological. I don’t hate pedophiles. I think it’s a potential dangerous brain wiring that deserves treatment. Those who believe it’s strictly a choice advocate a much harsher treatment. With regards to Islam or other value systems to be fair there is quite often not much choice there as well. 20 years of indoctrination in a relatively strict and homogenous society is difficult if not impossible to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/43 "2016-06-12T19:41:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Possibly – but I think that negative generalizations and attacks on Islam as a whole hurt the effort to modernize those groups and aspects within Islam that have not yet joined the modern world. How did Christianity change? Was it pure reason or a bit of reason and a whole lot of violence? ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/44 "2016-06-12T19:44:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I dount that you are suggesting that a gay man should feel equally safe in [insert almost any Muslim majority country here] as he would be in the U.S.? So let’s not make the perfect the enemy of the good. I’m not only not suggesting that, but what I said doesn’t even have a passing resemblance with what you wrote. I’m saying that there was a time when the death penalty existed for sodomy in a United States with a Constitution and a rule of Law. That imprisonment and hard labor existed as punishment for sodomy as late as 1962. So clearly the rule of law is far from a magical solution. It’s the social progress. Without that social progress, Christianity or any other religion are equally as dangerous as Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/45 "2016-06-12T19:46:29Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Despising an evil _ideology_ is not the same despising a _person_. “Hate the sin, not the sinner?” Yeah, I’ve heard that one before, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/46 "2016-06-12T19:46:43Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You can download full data and methodology of this particular poll here. > > [The Human Understanding Agency | Walnut Unlimited](http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/) I actually can’t download the full methodology, sadly. The data seems to all be there, though. Which leads me to notice that the numbers who agree/disagree with “Homosexuality should be legal” and “Gay marriage should be legal” are very similar when granulated down. I wonder if there was some conflation there. The same is true for the control group, as well. But it’s certainly a lot less than the control group. > [@](#): > > If you want more, it’s easy enough to Google them. Then by all means, please. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/47 "2016-06-12T19:47:06Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > But can you understand that as a gay person who has known physical assault and discrimination in the 60s, 70s and even later,… And what percentage of those who discriminated against you, or assaulted you, were Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/48 "2016-06-12T19:53:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How did Christianity change? Was it pure reason or a bit of reason and a whole lot of violence? Probably a mix of many things. Islam will change eventually no matter what, but our actions and rhetoric may have some small influence one way or the other on how fast the change is, as well as the nature of the change. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/49 "2016-06-12T19:56:24Z")
As requested, here is a rebuttal of your specific points. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sure certain groups within Islam as a whole advocate homophobia, just as certain groups within Christianity (and Judaism, and probably other religions as well) drive homophobia. It’s entirely possible (or not – I honestly don’t know) that a larger portion of Muslims subscribe to these kinds of beliefs than Christians and/or Jews. But the problem is not with Islam as a whole – it’s with the specific groups within Islam (and other religions) that promote hatred and violence. 1. Your comment suggests that homophobic hatred is propagated and present in equal proportion (or are in some way equvalent) in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. You are subtly but clearly making this claim of moral equivalency when you use the words “just as” in your first sentence. If someone stole a penny from your table and you said that he robbed you “just as” a bank robber, you are suggesting moral equivalency between the two acts. You honestly do not know if a “larger portion of Muslims subscribe to these kinds of beliefs than Christians and/or Jews”. Are you joking or are you saying this with a straight face? You honestly do not know? Well, my friend, here are a few clues. See if they maybe indicate a wee tiny bit more homophobia in Islam than in the west. Clue no. 1: a) Countries which have signed a General Assembly declaration of LGBT rights and/or sponsored the Human Rights Council’s 2011 resolution on LGBT rights (94 members). Not a single Islamic country signed unless you count the Central African Republic. b) Countries which signed a 2008 statement **opposing** LGBT rights (initially 57 members, now 54 members). The vast majority of these opponents are Islamic countries. What does that clue suggest to you? Clue no. 2: Homosexuality has been decriminalized in pretty much every western democracy, in many cases for decades (my own country, Canada, since 1969). Except for a hanfull of the world’s 47 or so Islamic countries, homosexuality is a crime punishable by death or imprisonment throughout the Muslim world. British Muslims, many of whom have been in the west for decades and who have presumably assimilated some western values, still want homosexuality criminalized in a proportion of 54% against 18%. **Starting to detect a pattern here, my friend? I am!** Clue no. 3: In the west, many major churches do not consider homosexuality a sin. And even among those that do, there is no known case of a mainstream church or group wanting to criminalize it, not counting a few nuts like the Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK. Even Orthodox Jews in Israel have not, to my knowledge, called for criminalization. Can you think of anything that compares with this in Islam? I realize there may be a group or two that are a little more liberal, but in Islam THEY are the marginalized ones. Clue no. 4: Polls show a majority of Americans, Canadians, Irish, Britons, etc. support gay marriage equality. Even Israel will recognize same-sex marriage performed elsewhere. Can you name a similar situation in Islam? I don’t think so! Sure, it is “specific groups” in Islam that drive homophobia. Your subtle use of the words “specific groups” suggests we are talking about smaller groups that are outside the majority view. I have no stats on this, but if a majority of Muslims in country agree with the execution of gays, they can still bedescribed as a “specific group” can they not? Sorry for the long answer, but it is just too easy for people like you to pull the old “moral equivalency” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/50 "2016-06-12T20:01:21Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Clue no. 4: Polls show a majority of Americans, Canadians, Irish, Britons, etc. support gay marriage equality. Even Israel will recognize same-sex marriage performed elsewhere. Can you name a similar situation in Islam? I don’t think so! Er, you are aware that there are plenty of American Muslims, Canadian Muslims, etc.? For that matter a lot of your arguments towards\*\* iiandyiiii\*\* seem to suggest that “Islamic countries” are the only times we “count” Muslims, vs. “western” countries. And please, please, cite your cites. I’m relying on other people to do that for you and you really shouldn’t allow that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/51 "2016-06-12T20:01:42Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Sure, but I still say that the west advanced socially first, and then religion followed, while Islam is predominant mostly in poorer, less socially advanced countries. I agree. As Sam Harris has eloquently said: > [@](#): > > Religious moderation is the product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance. So, the Enlightenment was the emergence of secular/rational/humanist ideology = the **good** ideas; over medieval Christian ideology = the **bad** ideas. Likewise, in the war of ideas in modern Muslim countries, the **bad** ideas are all under the banner of medieval Islamic ideology. It’s unclear how this will proceed. In the West, people continued to call themselves Christian, but became _de facto_ secular, they simply ignored the more barbaric dictates of their religion in their everyday lives. And of course, most Muslims already do this too. But that does not mean that it’s wrong or racist to criticize Islamic ideology as a wellspring of terrible ideas. Most Muslims are civilized people _despite_ Islamic ideology. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/52 "2016-06-12T20:05:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sure certain groups within Islam as a whole advocate homophobia, just as certain groups within Christianity (and Judaism, and probably other religions as well) drive homophobia. It’s entirely possible (or not – I honestly don’t know) that a larger portion of Muslims subscribe to these kinds of beliefs than Christians and/or Jews. But the problem is not with Islam as a whole – it’s with the specific groups within Islam (and other religions) that promote hatred and violence. Please cite the Islamic majority countries where it is safe to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/53 "2016-06-12T20:06:05Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > So, the Muslims are behind homophobia–even expressed by other groups. Sorry, my derision is well earned. > [From Right Wing Watch:](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/cruz-tries-rewrite-history-claims-he-denounced-radical-kill-gays-pastor) > > Cruz’s people later tried to distance him from this hateful creep. My point precisely. When it was exposed that this hateful creep wanted to execute gays, mainstream politicians, even conservative ones like Cruz, ran from him and treated him like a leper. Why do I suspect this would not happen in the 10 Islamic countries or jurisdictions that kill gays? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/54 "2016-06-12T20:07:31Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > As requested, here is a rebuttal of your specific points. > > 1. Your comment suggests that homophobic hatred is propagated and present in equal proportion (or are in some way equvalent) in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. No it doesn’t – I’m very open to the possibility that such hatred is present to a larger degree in Islam, as I explicitly stated in my second sentence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/55 "2016-06-12T20:08:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Please cite the Islamic majority countries where it is safe to be gay. If this had anything to do with what I’ve said I’d be interested, but it doesn’t, so I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/56 "2016-06-12T20:11:05Z")
Open to the possiblity? That’s like being open to the possibility that the Earth just may have more sitcoms than Neptune. Gay marriage is only legal in Christian-majority countries. There’s a reason for that. No matter how you measure tolerance for gays, it is highest in Christian majority countries, with the exception of Africa, where being gay is a crime in some countries. > **[LGBTQ Resources](https://www.liveabout.com/lgbtq-4145428)** > > Resources and advice to help lesbians, gays, bisexual, transgender, intersex, questioning and queers of all shapes and type, navigate through dating, politics, health, and other life interests. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/57 "2016-06-12T20:11:36Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > My point precisely. When it was exposed that this hateful creep wanted to execute gays, mainstream politicians, even conservative ones like Cruz, ran from him and treated him like a leper. Why do I suspect this would not happen in the 10 Islamic countries or jurisdictions that kill gays? That’s not actually what happened. That Pastor represents a big part of Cruz’s base of support. Something like three months later the campaign finally said it was a mistake to attend the event. It is entirely possible to criticize rampant homophobia among Muslims without downplaying its prevalence among Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/58 "2016-06-12T20:11:58Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > As a gay man I think you should be afraid of religious people and Russians, as acceptance of homosexuality is [inversely correlated with those two traits](http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/06/Revised-Report-Images-6.png). I can be afraid of both, can’t I? Your argument is just an example of whataboutism. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/59 "2016-06-12T20:14:25Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That’s not actually what happened. That Pastor represents a big part of Cruz’s base of support. Something like three months later the campaign finally said it was a mistake to attend the event. > > It is entirely possible to criticize rampant homophobia among Muslims without downplaying its prevalence among Christians. Oh, no doubt, but gay rights marches can and do take place in front of churches. The day one takes place in front of a mosque, even in the US, please let me know so I can bring popcorn. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/60 "2016-06-12T20:15:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If this had anything to do with what I’ve said I’d be interested, but it doesn’t, so I won’t. because you can’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=4)