# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/762 "2016-07-07T03:04:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re really throwing up an objection to using public funds for mocking a religion against the extreme violence against artists for Blasphemy? What part of > [@Kimstu](#): > > the difference between Christian vandalism/threats and Islamist-extremist terrorism in response to “blasphemous” art did you fail to understand? Of course I’m not claiming that vandalism and threats are equivalent to terrorist violence, and I made that distinction very clear. (Although the Christian death threats, which you carefully ignored in your replies, are arguably closer to terrorist violence than to defunding and vandalism.) The point is, as **Miller** noted, that you were wrong in claiming that “blasphemous” art doesn’t provoke outrage in Christians as well as in Muslims. The difference in the savagery of the outcomes isn’t because Christianity is intrinsically more gentle toward blasphemy, but rather because most Christians nowadays live in societies with secular law systems that frown on treating blasphemy as criminal. (In the days before those secular law systems, of course, Christian-majority societies executed blasphemers just as non-secular Muslim-majority societies do now.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/763 "2016-07-07T03:20:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OMG, I actually laughed out loud at that. That took real balls to post. You’re really throwing up an objection to using public funds for mocking a religion against the extreme violence against artists for Blasphemy? > > REALLY? Really? Are you as stupid as you seem to be trying to appear? There was no insult intended with the use of elephant dung, that is actually a medium employed in images created in Zimbabwe, (the artist was inspired to use it after visiting that country). Despite Giuliani’s lies that it was thrown at or smeared on the painting, the dung was used, (as it was used in a number of Ofili’s works form the period), as one of the materials carefully applied to the piece. In other words, an artist created a work with no insulting intent and you wish to join the masses of ignorant people who were upset over part of the media used without bothering to discover the actual background of the work–and twenty years later, you are clinging to that ignorance. I am sure that Trump is delighted to have you as a follower. _Tom later ETA:_ I apologize, I thought this was posted in The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/764 "2016-07-07T03:40:08Z")
Some other examples of Christians committing or threatening violence over art they considered blasphemous, even in societies with secular legal systems: [2014, Argentina:](http://www.christiantoday.com/article/barbie.doll.mary.and.ken.doll.jesus.exhibition.cancelled.by.argentinian.artists.after.receiving.threats/41722.htm) > [@](#): > > Artists Marianela Perelli and Emiliano Paolini’s religious dolls exhibition in Argentina was cancelled after receiving threats and complaints from believers. > > “We have received threats from various parts of the world,” Paolini told FoxNews. “It’s crazy… they have misinterpreted our work.” [2004, Serbia:](http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/art/2012/10/04/transgender-jesus-and-lgbt-apostles-enrage-serbians) > [@](#): > > A transgender or cross-dressing Jesus, surrounded by other LGBT apostles, is enough to rile many of the devout. That the photograph in question is a recreation of Leonardo Da Vinci’s masterpiece The Last Supper has caused so much furor that its display in Serbia has to be accompanied by 24/7 armed guards […] > > This is the first time “Ecce Homo” has appeared in Belgrade, Serbia. The Sun reported that 2,000 police were on hand to fight back protesters. The exhibition was meant to celebrate Pride this month, but city officials have canceled that event after increasing security concerns and backlash from opposition leaders. […] > > The Serbian interior ministry Wednesday banned a the LGBT pride parade for security reasons for the second year running, after ultranationalists threatened the march and the influential Serbian Orthodox Church condemned it. The patriarch also demanded that Prime Minister Ivica Dacic take steps to stop Wallin’s exhibition, which he called “deeply insulting.” [2011, Philippines:](http://bulatlat.com/main/2011/08/05/artist-mideo-cruz-wants-to-provoke-critical-thought-gets-death-threats-instead/) > [@](#): > > TV Patrol’s Mark Logan in his column in the tabloid Abante said many were incensed when they saw the TV Patrol report on Cruz and his exhibition. Logan suggested that those who were angered by how Cruz put together his installation art and murals depicting – among many other concepts — religious icons should kill Cruz. […] > > Logan went on to seemingly address Cruz: “If you’re an atheist or if you believe in no god, don’t violate the beliefs of others! This is a predominantly Catholic country, my boy…” […]His parting shot was to say that Cruz shouldn’t ask the media for help because the media doesn’t have the ability to protect him from being lynched. [2007, New York](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11669242/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/chocolate-jesus-exhibit-canceled-after-uproar/#.V33MoIdU9Uc): > [@](#): > > The “My Sweet Lord” display was shut down by the hotel that houses the Lab Gallery in midtown Manhattan, said Matt Semler, the gallery’s creative director. […] > > The hotel and the gallery were overrun Thursday with angry phone calls and e-mails about the exhibit. Semler said the calls included death threats over the work of artist Cosimo Cavallaro, who was described as disappointed by the decision to cancel the display. > > “In this situation, the hotel couldn’t continue to be supportive because of a fear for their own safety,” Semler said. [1999, US:](http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9909/17/dogma/) > [@](#): > > Smith’s comedy [Dogma] – about two fallen angels who attempt to use a Catholic loophole to return to heaven (by way of New Jersey) – in the last half-year has sparked much-publicized protests from the Catholic League. Those protests have prompted the film’s former studio, Disney-owned Miramax, to threaten a lawsuit against the league. > > Since then, Miramax co-chairmen Bob and Harvey Weinstein bought the film through a separate corporation and went through the precarious search for a distributor. > > And that’s not to mention the anonymous death threats, mostly sent to the Weinstein brothers, who passed them along to Smith. > > “The ones that really grabbed you by the throat were the ones that were like, ‘You Jews better take that money you’ve been stealing from us and invest in flak jackets because we’re coming in there with shotguns,’” Smith says. "You read that and you’re like, ‘Wow.’ [1988, Paris:](http://www.alternet.org/culture/5-biblical-films-inspired-religious-backlash) > [@](#): > > During a screening of the film [The Last Temptation of Christ] on Oct. 22, 1988 at the Saint Michel theater in Paris, a [French Christian fundamentalist group](http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/09/world/religious-war-ignites-anew-in-france.html) launched molotov cocktails that injured 13 people, four of them severely, and nearly burned down the theater. The film was banned for several years in Mexico, Turkey, Argentina and Chile and continues to be banned in the Philippines, South Africa and Singapore. > [@](#): > > […] after the arson attack Oct 22 [1988] on the St.-Michel cinema across the Seine from Notre-Dame Cathedral, the police recalled that Mr. Antony vowed in August that he and other militant Roman Catholics would use more than words to halt Martin Scorsese’s film and that the pugnacious politician had boasted that it would be an honor to go to jail to prevent such impiety and ‘‘anti-Christian racism’’ from being purveyed in France. > > With impressive rapidity, investigators have unraveled what they believe to be an underground network of Catholic fundamentalists linked to Mr. Antony who fanned out across France, making menacing telephone calls to theaters showing the Scorsese film, daubing them with the word ‘‘blasphemy,’’ setting off tear-gas canisters and stink bombs and assaulting filmgoers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/765 "2016-07-07T09:22:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that certainly explains the 400 million who would kill you for blasphemy. Keep in mind that number only accounts for a handful of countries. What explains the hundreds of millions who are entirely peaceful? > [@](#): > > I would call .2% very few. Not 2%. point 2 percent. And I’m not sure what stick you’re using to measure terrorist attacks but by all means count them up in the US and Israel. I would call .2% incorrect. It’s about 1%, 3.3 million people. And Muslim Americans are statistically less violent than Christian Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/766 "2016-07-07T09:25:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And Muslim Americans are statistically less violent than Christian Americans. Judging by the number of incidents of Christian Americans attacking Muslims and Mosques, I’d have to say you’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/767 "2016-07-07T10:36:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I would call .2% incorrect. It’s about 1%, 3.3 million people. I think he means that American Muslims are 0.2% of the worldwide Muslim population of 1.5 billion, not of the overall American population (which would be around 1%). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/768 "2016-07-07T11:00:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Judging by the number of incidents of Christian Americans attacking Muslims and Mosques, I’d have to say you’re correct. And I cited shooting rates per capita earlier in the thread, and Muslim Americans shoot a lot fewer people on a per capita basis than non Muslim Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/769 "2016-07-07T11:48:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wouldn’t exactly call 3 million+ “very few” – that’s many more than live in Israel, and we have far, far fewer terrorist attacks. In fact, Muslims Americans, on a per capita basis, [shoot a lot fewer people than non-Muslim Americans](http://econbrowser.com/archives/2016/06/mass-shooting-casualties-by-religion-of-perpetrator-muslim-vs-non-muslim-updated). Per capita, not gross numbers. > > So there’s a pretty strong measure in which we can say, statistically, that Muslim Americans are less violent than non-Muslim Americans. This claim is still based on lies, and will continue to be based on lies as long as you keep repeating it. You cannot just leave out [the biggest shooting during the period you are claiming to be covering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks) and pretend that your results are accurate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/770 "2016-07-07T12:04:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > This claim is still based on lies, and will continue to be based on lies as long as you keep repeating it. You cannot just leave out [the biggest shooting during the period you are claiming to be covering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks) and pretend that your results are accurate. What lies? Statistically, on a per capita basis, fewer people are shot by Muslims than by non-Muslims. The statistics I cited take into account mass shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/771 "2016-07-07T13:20:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nope, I’d call your interpretation very, very, very, very unorthodox and universally rejected by Muslims. And I’d point out lots of ways in which more standard interpretations of Muslim doctrine contradict it. > > However, that is simply not the same as your interpretation being “wrong”. Religious doctrines are not scientific facts, and there is no objective standard by which interpretations of them can be judged as “right” or “wrong” in any absolute sense. Right, well on that note I think it’s time I bow out of this thread. Our perspectives are clearly far too different for us to reach any sort of consensus. I mean no disrespect, but I honestly find your position to be completely incomprehensible. It might make good grist for another thread at a later date, but it would likely only derail this thread even further. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/772 "2016-07-07T14:05:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So many errors in so few lines. > > The explicit condemnation of homosexuality “by Mohammed” is not actually in his writings, (since he did not actually write the Qur’an), and the most harsh condemnations ocur only in Hadiths that were not written until 200 years after his death. > > And, as has been noted multiple times in the last page, or so, your “to this day” line is misleading nonsense since it implies a continuous condemnation and oppression for the last 1400 years when the evidence indicates that throughout a long period of that time, it was often pretty much ignored. > > And, of course, your “religion of peace” accusation is nothing more than you mocking George W. Bush, who introduced it to the world when no one else was making such a claim. I don’t have a lot to add other than the fact that until recently homosexuals have been hiding in the shadows and have been reluctant to come out (even in the States). What makes you think that the religious tolerance that you speak of is a true statement, when there is a high high probability that it wasn’t an issue because people didn’t make it one? The scrutiny that you now see is (IMO) due to the high profile that gay rights are now getting in the states. It’s just one more reason for them to bash on the west. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/773 "2016-07-08T01:35:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What explains the hundreds of millions who are entirely peaceful? Some Muslims ignore Mohammad’s violence side. For the millions of Muslims who don’t ignore this it creates a problem and that problem is manifested in the high number of Islamic terrorist groups. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I would call .2% incorrect. It’s about 1%, 3.3 million people. 3.3 million divided by 1.6 billion is .0001875. Rounded up that’s .2 percent. .2 percent of all Muslims live in the United States. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And Muslim Americans are statistically less violent than Christian Americans. If that were true there would be far fewer terrorist attacks in the US by Muslims because of the number difference. Which is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/774 "2016-07-08T02:10:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If that were true there would be far fewer terrorist attacks in the US by Muslims because of the number difference. Which is not the case. This is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/775 "2016-07-08T02:17:54Z")
Yeah, it’s kind of ridiculous to assume that because a higher percentage of US Muslims than of US Christians commit specifically _terror_ crimes, there must be a higher percentage of US Muslims than of US Christians committing violent crimes _overall_. There’s absolutely no reason that those two types of crime trends should be correlated. But we’ve already seen abundant evidence that logical reasoning is not **Magiver** ’s strong point. Just correct him and move on, as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/776 "2016-07-09T15:23:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, it’s kind of ridiculous to assume that because a higher percentage of US Muslims than of US Christians commit specifically _terror_ crimes, there must be a higher percentage of US Muslims than of US Christians committing violent crimes _overall_. There’s absolutely no reason that those two types of crime trends should be correlated. It’s not ridiculous at all to correlate violent behavior with violent beliefs. I’ve cited hundreds of millions of Muslims who hold those beliefs. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But we’ve already seen abundant evidence that logical reasoning is not **Magiver** ’s strong point. Just correct him and move on, as usual. What you’ve seen is an abundance of evidence of religiously driven violence that corresponds with a very large number of followers who believe death is appropriate for blasphemy and apostasy. We’re starting to see the overseas violence coming into the US via the [refugee program](http://kstp.com/news/minneapolis-police-investigate-alleged-terroristic-threats-calhoun-parkway/4186341/). That was the sanitized news version of what just happened. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/777 "2016-07-09T15:28:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not ridiculous at all to correlate violent behavior with violent beliefs. I’ve cited hundreds of millions of Muslims who hold those beliefs. Sure, and in the past, the situation was reversed at times. Why, at certain times in the past, where Christians so much less tolerant and more violent to Jews and homosexuals than Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/778 "2016-07-09T15:32:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure, and in the past, the situation was reversed at times. Why, at certain times in the past, where Christians so much less tolerant and more violent to Jews and homosexuals than Muslims? Because the Ottoman empire was waning and they were desperate to control more people and not piss off encroaching European powers so they lightened up on the persecution of non-muslims. It’s not like they were all warm and loving. This year’s gay pride parade in Turkey? The police teargassed the participants. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/779 "2016-07-09T15:38:49Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Because the Ottoman empire was waning and they were desperate to control more people and not piss off encroaching European powers so they lightened up on the persecution of non-muslims. It’s not like they were all warm and loving. This year’s gay pride parade in Turkey? The police teargassed the participants. they teargassed them because the government denied them permission to have the parade in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/780 "2016-07-09T15:45:28Z")
More like they have different ideas on gay behavior and gay identity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/781 "2016-07-09T16:21:47Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Because the Ottoman empire was waning and they were desperate to control more people and not piss off encroaching European powers so they lightened up on the persecution of non-muslims. It’s not like they were all warm and loving. This year’s gay pride parade in Turkey? The police teargassed the participants. It’s very convenient that circumstances now just so happen to perfectly reflect the true nature of Islam, while circumstances in the past can always be ignored or dismissed. I don’t see it that way. I look at the sweep of all of history, and Islam looks just like any other religion. Now isn’t special. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=40)