# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/61 "2016-06-12T20:16:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh, no doubt, but gay rights marches can and do take place in front of churches. The day one takes place in front of a mosque, even in the US, please let me know so I can bring popcorn. This is a silly and ignorant statement. I marched with Muslims _today_. If we didn’t pass a mosque, it was purely coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/62 "2016-06-12T20:17:25Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I would imagine because there are enough people around requiring support to sustain one. I do not know. What percentage of Islam are members of anti-gay muslim hate groups? When do we get to pit our hypothetical numbers against each other? You’ve let yourself down in your Googling again. A very quick check by me reveals that if we’re talking about the same person, the Muslim guy in question did want to open a gay mosque - in 2012. The latest I can find out about this is that it was still open in 2014. In the middle of Googling about him I also came across [this piece](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/life-as-a-gay-imam-isnt-as-bad-as-it-sounds), which also interviews a gay imam of a mosque in Washington, DC “which welcomes all cultures and sexual orientations”, as well as another leader of a support group. My Googling of just “gay mosques” reveals gay mosques and other Islamic and inclusive groups in a number of places across the world. If you count up all the members of gay Christian support groups, what percent of Christianity would that be? I actually don’t know, but I have to be concerned that going by what you’ve personally heard of isn’t the greatest metric. Well, if you’re into model trains, you might join a model train society or something, you wouldn’t join a “model train support group.” Wouldn’t that imply something different? If you live in a culture where you have to hide out in model train support groups there is something seriously fucked up about your culture. Great, there are gay mosques. In a few countries where it’s illegal to kill gays. **scr4** linked [to this article](http://islamandhomosexuality.com/5-imams-openly-gay/) and it says: > [@](#): > > Note: There are several others in Muslim-majority countries, but they have been excluded from this list to make sure their safety is not compromised. If you are aware of them, please do not mention them in the comments section. Thank you. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, that does. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/63 "2016-06-12T20:19:10Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is a silly and ignorant statement. I marched with Muslims _today_. If we didn’t pass a mosque, it was purely coincidence. It’s not ignorant. Mosques are not targeted for gay rights protests. If that is about fear and ignorance, it’s on the part of gays, for being scared to march in front of mosques. And no, just happening to pass a mosque is not what I’m talking about. When Dan Quayle spoke at our local megachurch in Fort Lauderdale about a decade back, it drew a couple hundred gay rights protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/64 "2016-06-12T20:21:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Hate the sin, not the sinner?” > > Yeah, I’ve heard that one before, thanks. Trite and logically incoherent. I hate both the sin AND the sinner if the sin is homophobic bigotry. I do not assume that all Muslims are homophobic bigots, any more than I assume that all fundamentalist Christians are homophobic bigots. I take people as I find them. But it’s ridiculous to claim that homophobic bigotry is not an almost universal attribute of both Islamic ideology and fundamentalist Christian ideology, and to paint me as a racist for pointing that out. Muslims and Christians are mostly civilized people _despite_ the bad ideas of their religions. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/65 "2016-06-12T20:22:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s not ignorant. Mosques are not targeted for gay rights protests. If that is about fear and ignorance, it’s on the part of gays, for being scared to march in front of mosques. > > And no, just happening to pass a mosque is not what I’m talking about. When Dan Quayle spoke at our local megachurch in Fort Lauderdale about a decade back, it drew a couple hundred gay rights protesters. In your imagination, gay rights protestors are targeting churches because of their homophobia, but avoiding mosques out of fear of violence. But that imagining has no basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/66 "2016-06-12T20:24:07Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, that does. I’d say that pretty much ends the debate right there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/67 "2016-06-12T20:25:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > In your imagination, gay rights protestors are targeting churches because of their homophobia, but avoiding mosques out of fear of violence. But that imagining has no basis in reality. In my imagination, artists blaspheme against Christian symbols because they can, and avoid blaspheming against Islamic symbols our of fear. But of course my imaging has no basis in reality. Look, this isn’t just your usual double standard. The President is so eager to reach out to Muslims that he doesn’t really care how virulently homophobic or sexist they are: [http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/02/03/obamas-mosque-visit-demonstrates-tacit-acceptance-of-a-form-of-gender-apartheid/](http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/02/03/obamas-mosque-visit-demonstrates-tacit-acceptance-of-a-form-of-gender-apartheid/) Note that this visit was the first time a US President had visited a mosque. Apparently he couldn’t find one that didn’t preach virulent homophobia and sexism. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/68 "2016-06-12T20:28:13Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > And what percentage of those who discriminated against you, or assaulted you, were Muslim? That is not the point. Can you understand that as a gay person, I have long experience with homophobic bigotry? That the sight of increasing immigration from countries where execution, whipping and stoning of gays is sanctioned by law and supported by the majority of people, I get fucking scared??? Try this on: I just found out that a certain proportion of the people in your neighbourhood want you dead. But hey, it is just 50 out of 500, so stop worrying! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/69 "2016-06-12T20:35:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Trite and logically incoherent. Yes, exactly my point. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/70 "2016-06-12T20:38:38Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > That is not the point. Can you understand that as a gay person, I have long experience with homophobic bigotry? I’m guessing most of the bigotry you have experienced is from Christians. So I don’t understand why you are singling out Muslims as a target of your rant here. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/71 "2016-06-12T20:47:30Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > That is not the point. Can you understand that as a gay person, I have long experience with homophobic bigotry? That the sight of increasing immigration from countries where execution, whipping and stoning of gays is sanctioned by law and supported by the majority of people, I get fucking scared??? > > Try this on: I just found out that a certain proportion of the people in your neighbourhood want you dead. But hey, it is just 50 out of 500, so stop worrying! So you’re saying our Syrian refugee outreach program might not have been such a great idea after all? I’m shocked! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/72 "2016-06-12T20:56:12Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > It’s the social progress. Without that social progress, Christianity or any other religion are equally as dangerous as Islam. Yes - we agree completely. Both Christian, Islamic and most other religious ideologies are dangerous without social progress. So, in the modern world, where most Muslim-majority countries are socially relatively backward, I take it you agree that Islamic ideology is currently more dangerous. Isn’t that pretty much what the OP said - albeit layered under a lot of snark? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/73 "2016-06-12T20:56:21Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Trite and logically incoherent. > I hate both the sin AND the sinner if the sin is homophobic bigotry. > > I do not assume that all Muslims are homophobic bigots, any more than I assume that all fundamentalist Christians are homophobic bigots. I take people as I find them. > > But it’s ridiculous to claim that homophobic bigotry is not an almost universal attribute of both Islamic ideology and fundamentalist Christian ideology, and to paint me as a racist for pointing that out. Muslims and Christians are mostly civilized people _despite_ the bad ideas of their religions. Some people’s hierarchy of oppression leads them to be willfully blind to any nuance. What you are writing is not complex. At all. Yet it will be deliberately misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/74 "2016-06-12T20:56:49Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, if you’re into model trains, you might join a model train society or something, you wouldn’t join a “model train support group.” Wouldn’t that imply something different? If you live in a culture where you have to hide out in model train support groups there is something seriously fucked up about your culture. I’m pretty sure you just quoted me there saying that support groups likely exist because there are enough people requiring support to sustain one. I’m not quite sure what point you’re attempting to convince me of, here. > [@](#): > > Great, there are gay mosques. In a few countries where it’s illegal to kill gays. Why would you make the point that you had never heard of a gay mosque earlier if you’re now saying that it makes no particular impression on you that they do in fact exist? That seems very strange. You know something now that you cast scorn on even the existence of earlier, and now you’re accepting and discounting it immediately? What was the point of bringing it up if it means nothing to you? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/75 "2016-06-12T20:58:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So you’re saying our Syrian refugee outreach program might not have been such a great idea after all? I’m shocked! I said it frightens me to see Muslims immigrating to my country, Canada, knowing that perhaps a majority, perhaps a large minority, believe I should be killed because Allah told them so. But I still supported and gave money to the refugee program, because their homophobia does not extinguish my humanitarian compassion. BTW, I said in my OP that I would like to hear from Muslims in this thread, but none seem to have shown up. I remember an Imam here in Canada who came to our humanist meeting as a guest, but when I told him I was gay he simply refused to speak to me. I suppose a lot of them figure that when it comes to gays, you do your talking with stones, guns or a rope. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/76 "2016-06-12T21:00:03Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > BTW, I said in my OP that I would like to hear from Muslims in this thread, but none seem to have shown up. I remember an Imam here in Canada who came to our humanist meeting as a guest, but when I told him I was gay he simply refused to speak to me. I suppose a lot of them figure that when it comes to gays, you do your talking with stones, guns or a rope. I see this one goes up to 11! Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/77 "2016-06-12T21:02:07Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why would you make the point that you had never heard of a gay mosque earlier if you’re now saying that it makes no particular impression on you that they do in fact exist? That seems very strange. You know something now that you cast scorn on even the existence of earlier, and now you’re accepting and discounting it immediately? What was the point of bringing it up if it means nothing to you? If a belief system is one where it’s extraordinary headline news that in a few rare cases LGBT people can actually participate, that’s hardly a ringing endorsement of that belief system. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/78 "2016-06-12T21:10:28Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If a belief system is one where it’s extraordinary headline news that in a few rare cases LGBT people can actually participate, that hardly a ringing endorsement of that belief system. I agree. But he(?) was under the impression that there were _zero_ gay mosques at all, and mockingly asked (if any hypothetically existed) how long they’d last due to security issues. To borrow your language, he’d be starting from a position where there’s zero participation for LGBT people at all, and discovering that actually that’s not so. It’s not a “ringing endorsement”, but going from “Hahaha a gay mosque? Not likely” to “Oh, sure, there’s gay mosques, who cares?” seems to be an odd dance from a position where it’s important to a position where it doesn’t matter at all. Put another way; if the existence of gay mosques doesn’t matter when it’s shown they exist, why is it that it was an important point to make that they didn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/79 "2016-06-12T21:11:18Z")
The fabulously gay Milo Yiannopoulos tweeted this today: “Milo Yiannopoulos ? ?@Nero 6m6 minutes ago Liberals: the problem with putting Muslims at the top of your victimhood hierarchy is that THEY WANT TO KILL EVERYONE ELSE ON THE LIST” ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/80 "2016-06-12T21:11:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yes - we agree completely. Both Christian, Islamic and most other religious ideologies are dangerous without social progress. > > So, in the modern world, where most Muslim-majority countries are socially relatively backward, I take it you agree that Islamic ideology is currently more dangerous. > > Isn’t that pretty much what the OP said - albeit layered under a lot of snark? Well, no. It’s fundamental for me to make this distinction clear: If social progress stops the bigotry, then the Muslim religions will eventually become more moderate as long as the Muslim countries move forward, and eventually moderation will prevail over extremism. If, however, the Muslim religions are inherently unable to progress, then there’s no hope. This is a point of view that a lot of people have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=5)