# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/802 "2016-07-15T03:17:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s really the whole problem with this discussion, I’m not assigning guilt by association, nor holding all Muslims responsible, you are. I am? How, exactly? You are making less and less sense as you dig yourself deeper into absurdity. > [@](#): > > You seem to have great difficulty separating people from religion. Again, how, exactly? This is the sin I would accuse you of, but, in any case, people are members of the religion they embrace. A man may be a Christian, in which case, where is the logical flaw in combining the person and his religion? > [@](#): > > There is an obvious problem with Islamic extremism. It stems from teachings within the religion and the violence is directly tied to these beliefs. that some people do or do not follow these beliefs means it’s not all inclusive as you keep insisting. It does not negate the religious influence on terrorist groups. I have never “insisted” that Islam is “all inclusive.” The phrase doesn’t even have any meaning. Everyone here agrees that Islamic religious extremism exists. You’re the one who “insists” that all Muslims are members of a religion that “drives homophobic violence,” even though you have been presented with evidence that this is not true. The “I’m rubber, you’re glue” form of debate is beneath you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/803 "2016-07-15T22:33:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I am? How, exactly? You are making less and less sense as you dig yourself deeper into absurdity. when you use broad brush arguments to dismiss the religion as the basis for the attacks. And speaking of attacks, I’ll add the latest one in Nice France. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/804 "2016-07-16T00:52:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > when you use broad brush arguments to dismiss the religion as the basis for the attacks. And speaking of attacks, I’ll add the latest one in Nice France. But using broad-brush attacks against the faith of Islam is exactly what you’ve been doing through this whole thread. Seriously, are you completely unaware of the absurdity here? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/805 "2016-07-16T04:09:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But using broad-brush attacks against the faith of Islam is exactly what you’ve been doing through this whole thread. > > Seriously, are you completely unaware of the absurdity here? I’ve cited my position. You have not. Seriously, how many terrorist attacks does it take for you to realize it’s the religion driving it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/806 "2016-07-16T04:14:15Z")
So now you’re back to broad-brushing the religion, exactly the thing you accused me of. My position is, and has always been, that the religion of Islam is the same as every other religion: only a small minority of its adherents commit crimes in its name. The vast majority of Muslims are good people, who do not commit crimes. I’ve said this maybe a dozen times, so you’re very, very wrong when you say, “You have not” (stated a position.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/807 "2016-07-16T04:32:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > only a small minority of its adherents commit crimes in its name. that’s simply not true. and the continuous unending violence attests to that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/808 "2016-07-16T05:04:02Z")
Okay, fine: cite that a non-minority of members of Islam commit crimes in its name. (And, hint, “correlations” and “holding opinions in favor” do not count. I said “commit crimes” and you said “not true.” Prove it, bub.) ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/809 "2016-07-16T12:21:13Z")
In the interests of full disclosure, I am a gay person. I’m not going to read this entire thread because, in my experience, this debate typically goes off on a tangent by revolving around whether broad denunciations of a particular religious group are valid. In contrast, I believe other factors should be considered. As far as scripture is concerned, the “word of God” isn’t much different between the three main Abrahamic faiths on this topic. The greatest difference is between the so-called New and Old Testaments of the Bible but Christians routinely dip into the Old Testament to find preferred arguments when convenience calls for it. The next consideration is the rhetoric. Unfortunately, I don’t speak Arabic. However, we don’t really need to because the Islamic State has an english-language magazine and an issue of it contains an article which speaks directly to this question. See **[Dabiq Magazine, issue 7](http://media.clarionproject.org/files/islamic-state/islamic-state-dabiq-magazine-issue-7-from-hypocrisy-to-apostasy.pdf)**. If you turn to page 42, you will find an article entitled _Clamping Down on Sexual Deviance_. The article is not solely about gays as it also addresses “loose” women. The images on page 42 depict a gay man getting thrown from a roof top and then stoned to death after he hit the ground. However, if we examine the rhetoric used to justify this, it is not fundamentally any different from the rhetoric Christians routinely use in denouncing gay people. The greatest difference is that Christians often blame gays for corrupting the morals of society, particularly the morals of children, whereas the Islamic State blames straight people for “allowing” us to corrupt society via toleration and our integration into society. > [@](#): > > With the advent of the “sexual revolution” five decades ago, the West was plunged into a downward spiral of sexual deviance and immorality. … > > Allah’s Messenger (sallallāhu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said, “Never does sexual perversion become widespread amongst a people to the point that it’s openly practiced, except that they will be overtaken by plague and disease that had never afflicted their ancestors who came before them” > > Disease became rampant, the rate of children born outside of marriage skyrocketed, and the nuclear family was on its way to becoming a relic of the past. Rather than taking heed upon witnessing the destruction of their social fabric, and changing their “way of life,” the kuffār defiantly persisted on their mission to eradicate their morals. They used their entertainment industry to mock and belittle those against the sexually deviant fringe, used their shirk-based parliaments to legalize sodomite marriage, used their education system to corrupt their children right from the kindergarten level by introducing books into the curriculum to combat “homophobia,” and used their churches and clergy to bless these sins via “revisionism.” Examples of this last tactic included the anointment of sodomite priests, the Catholic Pope’s refusal to “sit in judgment” of sodomite priests saying, “Who am I to judge?” and the publishing of articles that argue against their own traditional understanding of the distorted scriptures, such as claiming that the people of Sodom were destroyed for their cruelty and arrogance, and not for their sodomy. > > In the midst of this widespread affront to the fitrah (natural human disposition), the Islamic State continues its efforts against these deeds of misguidance – which Western “Civilization” regards as a part of their “values” – by implementing the rulings of Allah on those who practice any form of sexual deviancy or transgression. So, is Islam “driving” homophobic violence? I would say they drive it no more than Christians do. While these more extreme adherents of Islam certainly go farther with what is essentially gay bashing, it’s not like milder forms of it are not committed by Christians. Indeed, I would suggest almost all of it is committed at the hands of self-described Christians here in the U.S. … and they cite largely similar rhetoric to justify it as well. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/810 "2016-07-16T16:04:02Z")
The problem is that most religions, by their very nature, promote irrational thought and non-fact-based thinking. Once reason, logic and science have been abandoned, it opens the door to any “faith-based” ideas, no matter how irrational and hateful. Faith and force have gone hand-in-hand for millennia, and Islamic homophobia is merely the most recent manifestation. And yes, I’m including the more liberal branches of these religions. As long as their belief systems are based on faith, rather than reason, there’s nothing preventing their ideas from sliding back down that slippery slope of intolerance and violence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/811 "2016-07-17T16:49:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Okay, fine: cite that a non-minority of members of Islam commit crimes in its name. > > (And, hint, “correlations” and “holding opinions in favor” do not count. I said “commit crimes” and you said “not true.” Prove it, bub.) I’ve cited 400 million muslims who support the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy. It was not a complete survey which means there are more to add to that number. That you cannot understand this barbaric belief isn’t responsible for generating the exponential number of terrorist groups and wholesale slaughter compared to the other major religions is nothing short of intellectual bankruptcy. You’re argument is like saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer because not all smokers die of it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/812 "2016-07-17T17:18:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve cited 400 million muslims who support the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy. It was not a complete survey which means there are more to add to that number. That you cannot understand this barbaric belief isn’t responsible for generating the exponential number of terrorist groups and wholesale slaughter compared to the other major religions is nothing short of intellectual bankruptcy. > > You’re argument is like saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer because not all smokers die of it. Islam doesn’t cause violence. Specific parts and sects within Islam do – parts that are largely and thankfully absent in places like America, while present in larger portions in some other countries. What’s wrong with being specific? Why must Islam be painted with such a broad brush when there are so many millions of peaceful Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/813 "2016-07-17T21:45:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve cited 400 million muslims who support the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy. . . . You just changed the subject, which indicates that you will not, or can not, answer the question. I said, “only a small minority of its adherents commit crimes in its name.” You said, “that’s simply not true. and the continuous unending violence attests to that.” Okay: prove it. Show that more than a minority commits crimes. Supporting the death penalty is not “committing crimes.” At this point, your ducking, dodging, and evasion is bordering on the questionable. (Well, no, you’ve gone a country mile beyond questionable.) If you’re going to make a claim, be prepared to back it up. Changing over to some other claim is not a valid debating technique. ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/814 "2016-07-18T01:13:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve cited 400 million muslims who support the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy. It was not a complete survey which means there are more to add to that number. That you cannot understand this barbaric belief isn’t responsible for generating the exponential number of terrorist groups and wholesale slaughter compared to the other major religions is nothing short of intellectual bankruptcy. > > You’re argument is like saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer because not all smokers die of it. And your argument is a straw man. From the biblical text: > [@Leviticus 24](#): > > 13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14 **Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp** ; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, **and let all the congregation stone him.** 15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16 And **he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him:** as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, **when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.** It’s not the religion or the holy book. It’s what people choose to do with it…or, probably more accurately, what they’ve been indoctrinated to do with it. People routinely cite Leviticus to find a reason to denounce gay people. There’s nothing stopping them from citing this passage using the very same reasoning. Further, haven’t you heard of the inquisitions? It’s hardly like Christianity as well as Judaism haven’t had largely identical periods of extreme zealotry. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/815 "2016-07-18T03:09:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve cited 400 million muslims who support the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy. . . . Also…400 million is not a “majority” of 1.2 billion. Your argument is innumerate as well as faulty. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/816 "2016-07-19T01:10:46Z")
> [@dreamregent](#): > > The images on page 42 depict a gay man getting thrown from a roof top and then stoned to death after he hit the ground. However, if we examine the rhetoric used to justify this, it is not fundamentally any different from the rhetoric Christians routinely use in denouncing gay people. The greatest difference is that Christians often blame gays for corrupting the morals of society, particularly the morals of children, whereas the Islamic State blames straight people for “allowing” us to corrupt society via toleration and our integration into society. > > . Lack of a cake or lack of a life. Let me think about it. ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/817 "2016-07-19T07:07:17Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > Lack of a cake or lack of a life. Let me think about it. Ever hear the expression “the ends do not justify the means”? Is bigotry acceptable as long as no one is being killed? How about this historical analogy: Jim Crow was fine as long as no one was being lynched? That’s absurdly ridiculous, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/818 "2016-07-19T10:42:01Z")
> [@dreamregent](#): > > Ever hear the expression “the ends do not justify the means”? Is bigotry acceptable as long as no one is being killed? How about this historical analogy: Jim Crow was fine as long as no one was being lynched? That’s absurdly ridiculous, isn’t it? Did I say that bigotry was acceptable? Evidently you don’t get the very obvious point. ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/819 "2016-07-19T10:55:37Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > Did I say that bigotry was acceptable? Evidently you don’t get the very obvious point. Your point was ambiguous and not so obvious. I took it as a suggestion the set of reasoning cited may be used to justify one end but not the other (refusing to sell someone a cake vs. murdering a person). This was because of the particular passage you quoted and the fact that refusing to sell cakes to gay people has been a subject of news reports relatively recently. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/820 "2016-07-19T17:32:47Z")
Here’s a comparable (and satirical) argument: In the last 100 years, almost all of the overseas invasions (i.e. not attacks on a neighboring country) and overseas military interventions were performed by majority Christian countries. There are numerous quotes in the Bible that can very easily be interpreted to support invading other countries for various reasons. Is there something about Christianity that drives overseas invasions and military actions that result in hundreds of thousands and millions (far more than Islamic terrorism!) of deaths? Or does this have to do with other factors that aren’t related to the religious tenets of Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/821 "2016-07-19T18:52:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here’s a comparable (and satirical) argument: > > In the last 100 years, almost all of the overseas invasions (i.e. not attacks on a neighboring country) and overseas military interventions were performed by majority Christian countries. There are numerous quotes in the Bible that can very easily be interpreted to support invading other countries for various reasons. > > Is there something about Christianity that drives overseas invasions and military actions that result in hundreds of thousands and millions (far more than Islamic terrorism!) of deaths? Or does this have to do with other factors that aren’t related to the religious tenets of Christianity? That’s a good one. The US “presence” over the globe has not to do with religion, but with power and money. Let’s be for real. We’re not in the Middle East to save souls or even Israel. We’re there for the oil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=42)