# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/842 "2016-07-20T06:26:39Z")
I’ve long and long had a fondness for the (departed) Harold Camping, a theologian of some repute, even if he blew it major-league, with his prediction of the End of the World in April of 2012. Oops. He was very big into sola scriptura, and repeated, often, that the Bible is God’s Word, spoken by the very mouth of God, and thus is the Perfect guide to all truth and knowledge. But once, someone asked him how he knew this, and he admitted, frankly and with no shame, that his belief was based on faith. It takes some effort for certain of the faithful to admit this simple truth. It is based on faith. The only thing wrong with this is when they blunder and try to claim that it’s based on some other foundation. That leads to scientific creationism and madness. ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/843 "2016-07-20T07:59:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ve long and long had a fondness for the (departed) Harold Camping, a theologian of some repute, even if he blew it major-league, with his prediction of the End of the World in April of 2012. Oops. > > He was very big into sola scriptura, and repeated, often, that the Bible is God’s Word, spoken by the very mouth of God, and thus is the Perfect guide to all truth and knowledge. But once, someone asked him how he knew this, and he admitted, frankly and with no shame, that his belief was based on faith. > > It takes some effort for certain of the faithful to admit this simple truth. It is based on faith. The only thing wrong with this is when they blunder and try to claim that it’s based on some other foundation. That leads to scientific creationism and madness. It’s the same problem…no logical foundation. Primarily, elements of faith are demonstrably false or logically fallacious (i.e. appeal to authority or a burden of proof fallacy). Scripture contains a handful of verses which have actual archaeological evidence supporting a grain of truth underlying them but the rest of it is very problematic. There are some narratives which could theoretically be accommodated by particular historical contexts. For example, the story of Joseph at the end of Genesis could potentially fit within the contextual realities of Ancient Egypt’s Dynasty 13. Such a thing _could_ be possible but there’s no evidence supporting this; it would just be conjecture. In other cases, the claims made within the text are simply baloney. For example, Genesis claims Abraham has encounters with the Philistines. The problem with that is we have extensive extant archaeological evidence telling us when the Philistines, along with their material culture, arrived in Canaan and it would be impossible for those stories to be true. The text also asserts flat earth cosmology. Modern apologists try to deny this based on a single verse but when one examines all the verses which speak to this question together, it’s readily apparent they describe a flat earth. Of course, that’s a result of the age of the text. A spherical earth was not contemplated until Classical Greek times. Before then, some version of flat earth cosmology was universally believed by ancient cultures. Really, it’s a wonder why people lend credence to these texts. Clearly, they’re not reliable. It’s not just the Old Testament either. The New Testament has a host of problems as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/844 "2016-07-20T09:13:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Except all the violence directly associated with Mohammad’s words and actions. When you find a way to remove that from the religion he created then there will be a mechanism to remove the violence. No, that’s not at all special or unique. God and Moses are just as or more violent than Muhammed, and even Jesus beat the crap out of the temple money changers (you might read it differently, but that’s just an interpretation). **Magiver** , are you a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/845 "2016-07-20T11:49:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And the attack of the day is a two-fer. An [attack on a German train](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3696410/Man-attacks-21-people-AXE-train-Germany-shot-police.html) and [a mother and 3 daughters](http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/19/mother-and-three-daughters-stabbed-in-french-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed-6016072/) stabbed in France for how they’re dressed. Wow. The guy is a “refugee” living in Germany, where he attacks innocent people and yet he rants (about westerners, I assume) “coming to our homes, killing our families, and getting away with it.” How’s that for gratitude for being taken in? Oh, but he’s probably just another one of the many confused individuals. They’re coming out of the woodwork. You wonder why so many are so damn crazy, eh? … In the video released by ISIS and filmed before the stabbing, the teenager says he will carry out the attack and threatens ‘infidel’ countries. Knife in hand, he then announces in Pashto, an Afghan language, he would carry out an ‘operation’ in Germany, and presents himself as a ‘soldier of the caliphate’. He says: 'I am one of the soldiers of the Islamic Caliphate, and I am going to conduct an attack in Germany. It is about time to stop you from coming to our homes, killing our families, and getting away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/846 "2016-07-20T12:16:13Z")
> [@dreamregent](#): > > Christians revere Moses as a prophet and routinely reach back to Mosaic law when it suits their fancy. I’ve probably heard Leviticus 18:22 quoted at me by Christians more than any other verse in either testament. When they’re denouncing me for being a gay person, they aren’t saying anything about love and forgiveness, I assure you. In fact, they’ve often explicitly condemned me to hell for refusing to repent.Tell that to the victims of the inquisitions. You realize there were several of them spanning several centuries, right? And what about the African slaves held in the United States up through the 1860s? You do realize the African slave trade began with explicit papal approval and was championed by “Christian” churches in the southern United States, right? You have any links about recent Christian terrorists killing people in the name of God? But but but…the inquisition, Salem witch trials, some b.s. out of the old testament… I go to The Church of What’s Happening Now! and look forward to you providing some evidence that Christianity is breeding, right now, the kind of crazy assed killers that Islam evidently is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/847 "2016-07-20T12:19:21Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > You have any links about recent Christian terrorists killing people in the name of God? But but but…the inquisition, Salem witch trials, some b.s. out of the old testament… > > I go to The Church of What’s Happening Now! and look forward to you providing some evidence that Christianity is breeding, right now, the kind of crazy assed killers that Islam evidently is. Are you arguing that there’s something special about the tenets of Islam and its texts as compared to the tenets of Christianity and its texts? Or are you just arguing that there’s a disproportionate correlation between terrorism and Muslim individuals right now? If it’s the latter, then I don’t think you’ll find much disagreement in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/848 "2016-07-20T12:29:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you arguing that there’s something special about the tenets of Islam and its texts as compared to the tenets of Christianity and its texts? Or are you just arguing that there’s a disproportionate correlation between terrorism and Muslim individuals right now? If it’s the latter, then I don’t think you’ll find much disagreement in this thread. I’m asking dream regent for examples of recent terrorists attacks, like maybe since the first of this year, committed by Christians. He keeps comparing Christianity and Islam, and trying to spin that the one is as violent as the other, but in this enlightened world today, it’s just not so. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/849 "2016-07-20T12:31:26Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > I’m asking for examples of recent terrorists attacks, like maybe since the first of this year, committed by Christians. I thought that was pretty clear. Okay. Whatever you’re saying doesn’t appear to conflict with what I’m saying (or anyone else that I can find) in this thread, from what I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/850 "2016-07-20T12:32:48Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > I’m asking for examples of recent terrorists attacks, like maybe since the first of this year, committed by Christians. I thought that was pretty clear. You want to demonstrate that Islam is fundamentally flawed whereas Christianity is not, right? Both these religions are far more than a thousand years old. Looking at less than 0,1% of their history for evidence end excluding the rest does not strike me as sound methodology. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/851 "2016-07-20T12:36:56Z")
I would note that I have suggested from time to time that it’s not Islam, but the cultures they live in, but I am no longer as certain about that as I was. I really never gave Islam much thought at all until 911. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/852 "2016-07-20T12:38:04Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > You want to demonstrate that Islam is fundamentally flawed whereas Christianity is not, right? Both these religions are far more than a thousand years old. Looking at less than 0,1% of their history for evidence end excluding the rest does not strike me as sound methodology. I Would Like To See Some Examples Of Christian Terrorist Attacks This Year ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/853 "2016-07-20T12:40:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. Whatever you’re saying doesn’t appear to conflict with what I’m saying (or anyone else that I can find) in this thread, from what I can tell. I do appreciate that we can have this discussion in a civil manner, unlike on some forums. edit: And now, I have to go work some. You guys have a good day. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/854 "2016-07-20T13:09:48Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > I > Would > Like > To > See > Some > Examples > Of > Christian > Terrorist > Attacks > This > Year I do not have any for you. What do you need them for? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/855 "2016-07-20T15:58:08Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > I > Would > Like > To > See > Some > Examples > Of > Christian > Terrorist > Attacks > This > Year If “this year” includes the past eight months, there’s the November 27 attack on the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood, committed by [an unhinged Christian terrorist who says Obama is the Antichrist](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/04/11/planned-parenthood-shooter-happy-his-attack/32579921/), and [publicly approved by a US member of the Christian terrorist group “Army of God”](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/army-god-activist-hails-planned-parenthood-shooting-they-reap-what-they-sow). Within the past twelve months, you’ve also got [Christian “anti-Balaka” militias in CAR forcing Muslims to convert to Christianity and otherwise terrorizing Muslims](http://www.loonwatch.com/2015/08/central-african-republic-muslims-being-forced-to-convert-to-christianity-by-christian-militias/): > [@](#): > > Muslims in the western part of Central African Republic are being forced to hide their religion or convert to Christianity under threat of death, Amnesty International said Friday. […] > > Muslims told Amnesty International they’ve been forced to convert or hide practices. > > “We had no choice but to join the Catholic Church. The anti-balaka swore they’d kill us if we didn’t,” said a 23-year-old man in the Sangha-Mbaere prefecture, whose name was not given to protect his security. If you’re restricting the timeframe to the 2016 calendar year, you’ve got (as you do every year, all the time) the ongoing [terror campaign of the Lord’s Resistance Army](http://www.theresolve.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/The-State-of-the-LRA-2016-Final.pdf) in Congo, Sudan and CAR. (Cue the goalpost-shifting as the Islamophobia-defenders fall back on reiterating _“well, but there are many **more** contemporary terror attacks being carried out by radical Islamists”_, which of course nobody has disputed at all at any point in this thread. :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/856 "2016-07-20T20:10:13Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > . . . I go to The Church of What’s Happening Now! and look forward to you providing some evidence that Christianity is breeding, right now, the kind of crazy assed killers that Islam evidently is. That’s why the comparison to Christianity is valid here: it proves that a major faith can change – the leopard can change its spots – and that a religion that once was violent can, over time, become peaceful. Our correlative correspondent believes that this can’t happen with Islam, even though it did happen with Judaism and Christianity. He seems to think that Islam is unique in this respect. That’s why Christianity’s own evolution is relevant: it shows that faiths are mutable with time. ---
**Author:** ![dreamregent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dreamregent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamregent)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/857 "2016-07-20T21:14:54Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > You have any links about recent Christian terrorists killing people in the name of God? But but but…the inquisition, Salem witch trials, some b.s. out of the old testament… > > I go to The Church of What’s Happening Now! and look forward to you providing some evidence that Christianity is breeding, right now, the kind of crazy assed killers that Islam evidently is. This is called a straw man. When you apply a temporal limitation of what people are doing “this instant”, you are objecting to a claim no one has made. Everyone else appears to be speaking of the fundamental nature of these religions. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/858 "2016-07-20T21:42:52Z")
> [@Mr.Natural](#): > > I > Would > Like > To > See > Some > Examples > Of > Christian > Terrorist > Attacks > This > Year > **[Syria: At least 85 civilians feared dead after US air strike 'mistake'](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/syria-least-85-civilians-feared-dead-after-us-air-strike-mistake-1571600)** > > US military confirms it is investigating what could be one of the worst incidents of civilian deaths by coalition forces ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/859 "2016-07-20T23:48:02Z")
> [@dreamregent](#): > > This is called a straw man. When you apply a temporal limitation of what people are doing “this instant”, you are objecting to a claim no one has made. Everyone else appears to be speaking of the fundamental nature of these religions. This is called an attempt to spin away from the point. Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Natural](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mr.Natural](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Natural)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/860 "2016-07-20T23:50:28Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > [Syria: 85 civilians feared dead after US air strike 'mistake' | IBTimes UK](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/syria-least-85-civilians-feared-dead-after-us-air-strike-mistake-1571600) uhh, that is US military. Another attempt to spin, but just as miserable a fail. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/861 "2016-07-21T00:11:39Z")
> [@Mr Natural](#): > > You have any links about recent Christian terrorists killing people in the name of God? […] > > Still waiting. You skipped past post #854, apparently? There are some recent Christian terrorists for you, killing people (and otherwise terrorizing them, e.g., by requiring them to convert to Christianity or be summarily killed) in the name of God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=44)