# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/101 "2016-06-12T22:10:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sure certain groups within Islam as a whole advocate homophobia, just as certain groups within Christianity (and Judaism, and probably other religions as well) drive homophobia. It’s entirely possible (or not – I honestly don’t know) that a larger portion of Muslims subscribe to these kinds of beliefs than Christians and/or Jews. But the problem is not with Islam as a whole – it’s with the specific groups within Islam (and other religions) that promote hatred and violence. Wow. Folks got in two posts before we hit “but Christians do it, too”. Seriously, **iiandyiiii** , you’re a smart fellow. Do you REALLY not know if homophobia is more prevalent among Muslims than Christians? REALLY??? ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/102 "2016-06-12T22:17:35Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > As you are no doubt already aware, I, Valteron am a crazy bigoted Islamophobe, so I will in all humility ask questions and allow myself to be enlightened by all the other posters. > [@](#): > > **Can I ask for a modicum of understanding instead of derision?** I will try my best. > [@](#): > > 1. Is it possible that Islamic doctrines (and penalties prescribed by Islamic scripture) regarding gays account for murderously homophobic attitudes, arrests, massacres and executions both within and without the Muslim world? If I may, I’d rephrase this question as, “Are there ways that Islam is used to justify and normalize contemporary homophobic attitudes and violence?” In which case the answer is yes. The follow-up question, “Are there or can there be ways that Islam is used to combat contemporary homophobic attitudes and violence?” has answers that might include both things that progressive Muslims can get behind (e.g. giving emphasis to extant peaceful and tolerant traditions in Islam; better integrating people of Muslim backgrounds into society) and things that you would probably approve of too (e.g. greater freedoms of speech). > [@](#): > > 1. Does it mean anything that the vast majority of the 57 countries who refused to sign the UN declaration on LBGT rights and instead signed a 2008 statement opposing LGBT rights were Muslim countries? It’s not a coincidence. I would suggest that things that unite these countries aside from having majority Muslim populations are a shared history of colonialism, certain nationalist ideologies, and generally tendentious relationships with dominant international institutions, and these things also matter in terms of why these countries act the way they do. I’m not saying religion doesn’t matter. But again, if we say, “Islam is playing a negative role”, then the follow-up question is “Is or can Islam play a positive role?” There aren’t easy answers to this question because Islam – like any system of meaning-making, “religious” or “secular” – does not exist isolated from other issues in people’s lives and histories. > [@](#): > > 1. Does it mean anything that the alleged shooter in the worst shooting massacre in US history at a gay club in Orlando on June 12, 2016, was of Afghan descent (which suggests that he is Muslim athough this fact has not been confirmed), and that according to his father he had become enraged when he saw two men kissing? Do you suppose religious upbringing might have played a role in his homophobic attitudes? People will point out – correctly – that the identity of the shooter will not allow one to make useful conclusions about other individuals of Afghan descent, Muslim background, or Muslim identity. You might reply – “but how do we address the real problem of structural homophobia in Afghan/Muslim communities in particular?” Luckily there is a growing conversation on this issue being led by LBGTQ people of Muslim background or faith, of which I am sure you are aware. > [@](#): > > 1. Does it mean anything that some 10-12 countries or jurisdictions that currently use the death penalty on gays (including Afghanistan) are all or almost all Muslim? (There is uncertainty as to the present status of law in Uganda regarding the death penalty and gays, so feel free to trot that country out as if one oddball exception contradicts the overall facts). Do you realize that Muslim countries that do not have the death penalty for gays have various penalties up to life in prison? See (2) > [@](#): > > 1. What does it mean that polls in Britain indicate a solid majority of British Muslims want to recriminalize homosexuality? I would say it means that cultural and ideological forces that have promoted the acceptance and even celebration of LBGTQ in Britain and many Western countries have had more difficulty penetrating the British Muslim community. From an outsider’s perspective, it would seem to call for a re-evaluation of the arguments being used to try to bring change in this area, in addition to measures to protect the wellbeing of LBGTQ people throughout society. > [@](#): > > 1. While it is true that some Christians and Jews are homophobic, and while it is true that the Old Testament calls for the death of homosexuals, do you honestly feel that this mostly forgotten bit of bronze-age scripture can seriously be trotted out as the moral equivalent of the regular persecutions and executions of gays by Muslims in the world today? Are these two situations really comparable in any way? I have grown very impatient with the way that Islam and Muslims in the West are never directly engaged with but are instead considered in the abstract as a point of contention between different political factions. I do not like the idea that all religions are the same, nor do I like demonizing the different. > [@](#): > > 1. Is the killing and imprisonment of gays a mainstream position in Christianity or Judaism, or is it the opinion of a very few, isolated nutbars? What about Islam? Will you at least admit that it is a mainstream position advocated by hundreds of millions of Muslims? I would agree homophobia and homophobic violence is a very serious problem in Islamic communities. I think there are productive and unproductive ways for different groups (e.g. Western non-Muslims, straight cis Muslims, LBGTQ Muslims, ex-Muslims, etc.) to go about addressing this problem. Reinforcing an adherence to arbitrary definitions of “religion” and tired pseudo-rationalist secular/religion paradigms that both arose from Protestant Christian universalism and have been shamelessly repurposed as a kind of secularist triumphalism - that would be an **unproductive** way. Acting like Islam doesn’t matter - that would be another unproductive way. To make a broader commentary, the whole language of “backwards” neglects the fact that all of these places have been going through time just like everyone else, they have their own experiences with these concepts like “modernity”, “secularism”, “democracy”, “human rights”, and far too often these experiences have been negative. Expressions of Islam have developed alongside this history. Instead of saying “religion bad!” and blaming “bronze age” ideals as if these people have been frozen in time, being a little introspective and looking at the history of how modernists, reformers, and secularists have acted in Muslim-majority countries for the last century or so might be more instructive in terms of understanding why things are the way they are now, and finding ways to improve. > [@](#): > > But here is my final question. **And I would not mind if some Muslims on this forum answered this question as well.** Call me a bigot and an Islamophobe. But can you understand that as a gay person who has known physical assault and discrimination in the 60s, 70s and even later, can you understand why I am fucking scared shitless of Islam and Sharia law? Can you understand why immigration from a countries where millions of people believe gays should be killed or punished alarms me? I can understand why you would have a negative reaction, but “scared shitless” seems like an overreaction based on what I know of you and where you live. If I was talking to you in person, I would empathize with you, but I would also suggest that you - we - have the luxury of being able to take a more measured and critical approach to the particular issue of homophobia and violence in Islam and what can be done to improve things. It’s a good thing we do too, because I, at least, do not make my best decisions when scared shitless. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/103 "2016-06-12T22:26:08Z")
I have to ask: Why is it that liberals usually admonish society to “take victims, and their personal experiences, seriously” - for instance, if women in college claim they are afraid to walk alone at night due to having been assaulted before, then society should heed their concerns and not dismiss such fears and pretend that the threat isn’t real… …but somehow here, in this thread, we have the OP who is a gay person and he is expressing his personal experiences and his reasons for being afraid of what Islam means for his sexual orientation, and he cites many reasons as to why his concerns are well-founded, and suddenly many liberals are claiming that he is Islamophobic and are tearing down his concerns or essentially telling him that he should just deal with it and put up with what makes him afraid? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/104 "2016-06-12T22:26:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. Folks got in two posts before we hit “but Christians do it, too”. > > Seriously, **iiandyiiii** , you’re a smart fellow. Do you REALLY not know if homophobia is more prevalent among Muslims than Christians? REALLY??? But which group has the political power in the United States? ETA for Velocity above: simple: there are clear disagreements here on what “well founded” means, so of course there is going to be some debate. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/105 "2016-06-12T22:30:05Z")
> [@nani](#): > > It’s not a coincidence. I would suggest that things that unite these countries aside from having majority Muslim populations are a shared history of colonialism, certain nationalist ideologies, and generally tendentious relationships with dominant international institutions, and these things also matter in terms of why these countries act the way they do. Can you explain how colonial history, nationalism & tendentious international politics contribute to murderous hatred toward the homosexuals in your own population? I’m more than wiling to accept that it’s not just Islam, it’s all religions, or that perhaps homophobia is a trait of all barbaric societies. But blaming Western imperialism for homophobic bigotry seems a little thin to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/106 "2016-06-12T22:34:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. Folks got in two posts before we hit “but Christians do it, too”. > > Seriously, **iiandyiiii** , you’re a smart fellow. Do you REALLY not know if homophobia is more prevalent among Muslims than Christians? REALLY??? If I had to guess I’d probably guess Islam, but I without data I don’t know, and I wouldn’t trust my guess since such things are so often driven by stereotypes, bias, and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/107 "2016-06-12T22:35:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > …but somehow here, in this thread, we have the OP who is a gay person and he is expressing his personal experiences and his reasons for being afraid of what Islam means for his sexual orientation, and he cites many reasons as to why his concerns are well-founded, and suddenly many liberals are claiming that he is Islamophobic and are tearing down his concerns or essentially telling him that he should just deal with it and put up with what makes him afraid? I just had a quick look through the thread, and I can find exactly **one** person claiming that **Valteron** is Islamophobic, and that is he himself. Could you quote these “many liberals” who have claimed he is? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/108 "2016-06-12T22:40:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. Folks got in two posts before we hit “but Christians do it, too”. This is _literally_ never going to change. This is what we’re going to be talking about when the Mullahs come in with Kalashnikovs. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/109 "2016-06-12T22:52:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. Folks got in two posts before we hit “but Christians do it, too” The comparison is the explicit debate topic of the OP. See point 6, among others. It would actually be _awesome_ if, just once, we could talk about the pathologies in Islam without having to debate the question of whether this makes the religion the most evil of all, or whatever **Valteron’s** theory is. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/110 "2016-06-12T22:55:31Z")
Suppose - just for hypothetical’s sake - that 10 percent of Christians think homosexuality should be criminalized and 30 percent of Muslims think homosexuality should be a crime. In that case, both liberals and conservatives could present a technically truthful argument. Liberals could say, \*“Only a minority of Muslims support criminalizing homosexuality. And there are some Christians who want homosexuality criminalized, too.” \* Conservatives could say, _“Three times as many Muslims as Christians, percentage-wise, think homosexuality ought to be a crime, so Islam is the more anti-gay religion.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/111 "2016-06-12T22:58:34Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I just had a quick look through the thread, and I can find exactly **one** person claiming that **Valteron** is Islamophobic, and that is he himself. > > Could you quote these “many liberals” who have claimed he is? Here you go: > [@Miller](#): > > As a gay man who survived decades of discrimination, how can you not recognize that it’s just as evil when you do it to others, as it is when they do it to you? As with the many opinion polls showing the frightening attitudes of British Muslims, I’m not doing any more work for you. If you actually care about finding out what British Muslims think, then it’s easy to find the many polls and assess them for yourself. Similarly, if you are really interested in finding the many examples of the Left using the “Islamophobia” racism slur to silence criticism of Islam (even silencing Muslim victims themselves), you can Google “Regressive Left”. If you just want to deny a reality that doesn’t suit your ideology and try to score weak rhetorical points because I won’t tee up a dozen examples for you, then I’m not interested. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/112 "2016-06-12T23:07:45Z")
nani, you said “based on what I know of you and where you live”. . . . . Are you by any chance a Muslim? Because having Muslims know where I live is not high on my list of preferences. Okay, Okay, I am being a bit paranoid. Vengeful Muslims would not go after me any more than they would go after, say, cartoonists, right? Oh, wait. . . . . . . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/113 "2016-06-12T23:12:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Seriously, **iiandyiiii** , you’re a smart fellow. Do you REALLY not know if homophobia is more prevalent among Muslims than Christians? REALLY??? IAN **iiandyiiii** and cannot speak for him, but I suppose that he, like all of us, is perfectly well aware that **in today’s world there is a higher proportion of Muslims than of adherents of other major religions espousing violent repression of homosexual behavior, and of other forms of liberal social freedom, for that matter**. Whether that also means that “homophobia” in **every** sense of the term is more prevalent among Muslims worldwide than among, say, Christians or Jews, I’m not sure it’s possible to determine. If by “homophobia” you mean _“active violent repression of and/or draconian legal punishments for homosexuality”_, then yes, worldwide, Islam is well in the lead on that front. But it’s not necessarily that far out there in terms of opposition to homosexuality in general. As I’ve pointed out on these boards before, approximately 10-12% of Jews worldwide (e.g., [about 6% of US Jews](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/08/26/a-portrait-of-american-orthodox-jews/), [about 13% of Israeli Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel)) adhere to some form of ultra-Orthodoxy that officially rejects and proscribes homosexuality entirely. And there are many less extreme Orthodox Jews who, while not condemning homosexuality so vehemently, still believe it’s wrong. Let’s also not forget that [more than half of the over 80 states worldwide that legally prohibit and punish homosexual behavior retain those laws as a direct legacy from anti-homosexuality laws imposed by British colonial rulers in the nineteenth century](https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/12/17/alien-legacy/origins-sodomy-laws-british-colonialism), in the supposed name of civilization and Christian principles. The Ottoman Empire—which officially self-identified as “Islamic” just as much as officially Muslim states do today—decriminalized homosexuality in 1858, well before most Christian cultures. Salafist and similar Muslim-fundamentalist movements (like National Socialism later in post-WWI Germany) adopted militantly austere and culturally conservative policies partly due to scapegoating of such “decadent” and “liberal” attitudes as the cause of their political “decline” and “weakness”. Nobody really knows what typical Muslim attitudes toward homosexuality would be like today if 19th-century Western cultures, particularly the British Empire, hadn’t so strongly politicized tolerance of homosexuality as “backwards” and “barbaric”. Like I said, I have no problem standing up for the superiority of liberal tolerant values over theocratic repressive ones and saying that civil legal systems the world over ought to respect broadly defined civil liberties, including with respect to gay rights. I just think **it’s hypocritical to ignore the fact that in most modern democratic societies these liberal tolerant values are quite a recent development, and it wasn’t all that long ago that we were telling the rest of the world, frequently at gunpoint, that they should believe pretty much the exact opposite.** ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/114 "2016-06-12T23:14:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m sorry, I’m still not following the point you’re disagreeing with me on. Could you quote the part you’re arguing against? No, that doesn’t work, unfortunately. You wondered in that same post about that one Muslim guy in France who you cited (from 2012, who you’d missed had gone on to create it) and how long his creation would last and what security they’d have to have. If you’d believed that his mosque, or such mosques, existed, you would have simply gone to answer your wonderings. The only reason not to seek an answer for your wondering, considering you had already searched on at least one example, would be if you didn’t think there was an answer. That or perhaps “I wonder” means for you “I have no idea and I feel no need to find out”, but that seems stretching the word to breaking point. So what you’re saying is I didn’t know if there were gay mosques, didn’t want to find out, but knew of at least one, or at least a guy who wanted to start one. Okay. Not sure what answer you’re looking for from me. [Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20547335) opened a “mosque” in Paris. I put mosque in scare quotes because according to other Paris imams it isn’t a mosque, nor is it Islamic. It’s inside a buddhist temple. It’s described as a “safe place.” It’s been threatened. He doesn’t like to reveal its location. Technically, it isn’t even a gay mosque. It’s an inclusive mosque, or “gay friendly.” Men who go there want to be anonymous and not be recognized. There’s another guy in South Africa. [Dr. Taj Hargey](https://www.vice.com/read/open-mosque-taj-hargey-south-africa-934). Also not a gay mosque. It’s a gay-friendly “open” mosque. South Africa’s governing body for Muslims declared it illegal. It’s been firebombed three times. Someone tried to drive a 4x4 through the front door. He’s been threatened with hanging and castration. So, no gay mosques, a handful of gay imams, some support groups and Islam is still dangerously homophobic. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/115 "2016-06-12T23:15:35Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Here you go: I did see that, but that one only works if **Miller considers that Valteron** has or is committing discrimination in what he’s said or done, and that’s not 100% clear. Granting it for the sake of argument, however, that’s one, not many. > [@](#): > > As with the many opinion polls showing the frightening attitudes of British Muslims, I’m not doing any more work for you. If you actually care about finding out what British Muslims think, then it’s easy to find the many polls and assess them for yourself. You’re actually doing the work for **Valteron** , since he doesn’t seem to be citing anything himself. You aren’t under any kind of obligation to back up his arguments (or **Velocity** ’s), and I will think no less of you if you choose to not do so. The reason I ask for others to do it is twofold; first, it’s just good practice to provide cites for points that the person/people in question is making. And second, given that people refer to them, and especially in cases where specific numbers are cited, my assumption is that those people actually have a particular cite in mind. It’s a good idea to get at the particular sources people are referring to because otherwise it may be that I or whoever go off and find one that actually they _don’t_ agree with or support for whatever reason. > [@](#): > > Similarly, if you are really interested in finding the many examples of the Left using the “Islamophobia” racism slur to silence criticism of Islam (even by Muslim victims themselves), you can Google “Regressive Left”. Actually, I’m mostly interested in seeing **Velocity** back up a statement that I don’t see how they can support. I don’t recall taking up a position on how many examples of the Left using “Islamophobia” to silence criticism of Islam there are. > [@](#): > > If you’re more interested in denying a reality that doesn’t suit your ideology and trying to score weak rhetorical points, then I’m not interested. I don’t understand how you can talk about the importance of looking into accusations of Islamophobia on one hand, and then call looking into accusations of Islamophobia a “weak rhetorical point” on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/116 "2016-06-12T23:20:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Suppose - just for hypothetical’s sake - that 10 percent of Christians think homosexuality should be criminalized and 30 percent of Muslims think homosexuality should be a crime. > > In that case, both liberals and conservatives could present a technically truthful argument. > > Liberals could say, \*“Only a minority of Muslims support criminalizing homosexuality. And there are some Christians who want homosexuality criminalized, too.” > \* > Conservatives could say, _“Three times as many Muslims as Christians, percentage-wise, think homosexuality ought to be a crime, so Islam is the more anti-gay religion.”_ I think your hypothetical is roughly accurate, in the sense that proportionally more Muslims are homophobic. I’m not sure why it is necessary in this discourse to attribute that to the content of Islamic teaching, which is what people generally mean by “Islam is the more anti-gay religion.” Isn’t that a separate and substantially more complicated debate? For example, I expect there are more homophobic Baptists than Methodists. But I don’t think it has anything to do with their religious differences. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/117 "2016-06-12T23:21:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Why is it that liberals usually admonish society to “take victims, and their personal experiences, seriously” - for instance, if women in college claim they are afraid to walk alone at night due to having been assaulted before, then society should heed their concerns and not dismiss such fears and pretend that the threat isn’t real… > > …but somehow here, in this thread, we have the OP who is a gay person and he is expressing his personal experiences and his reasons for being afraid of what Islam means for his sexual orientation, and he cites many reasons as to why his concerns are well-founded, and suddenly many liberals are claiming that he is Islamophobic Your analogy is absurd. **If women in college argue that all men should be castrated because they’re inherently dangerous to women, or that men don’t deserve the same civil liberties as women because maleness is innately harmful, then we tell those women that _they’re being bigoted too_**. Nobody is criticizing **Valteron** for honestly expressing his (justified) fear and anger that the high prevalence of repressive and violent theocratic extremism in many Muslim societies makes life less safe for him as a gay man. But his justified fear and anger on this issue don’t entitle him to stick his head up his ass and spout whatever sweeping generalizations he pleases. Any more than women who are justifiably enraged and fearful about the widespread prevalence of rape culture and toxic models of masculinity are entitled to use that as an excuse to spew rubbish about how having a penis automatically makes you an evil person. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/118 "2016-06-12T23:26:02Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So what you’re saying is I didn’t know if there were gay mosques, didn’t want to find out, but knew of at least one, or at least a guy who wanted to start one. Okay. Not sure what answer you’re looking for from me. No, you said you didn’t know if there were any, went to find out, found one guy who wanted to start one and read nothing else on the page including when that was from while at the same time saying you wondered about security arrangements and how long it would last. The answer I was looking for was whether the explanation for that seeming disparity was one of the suggestions I had or something else. > [@](#): > > [Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20547335) opened a “mosque” in Paris. I put mosque in scare quotes because according to other Paris imams it isn’t a mosque, nor is it Islamic. Is what “other Paris imams” think a compelling argument to you? I would have thought that you would be in disagreement with them on many issues. > [@](#): > > It’s inside a buddhist temple. It’s described as a “safe place.” It’s been threatened. He doesn’t like to reveal its location. Technically, it isn’t even a gay mosque. It’s an inclusive mosque, or “gay friendly.” Men who go there want to be anonymous and not be recognized. > > There’s another guy in South Africa. [Dr. Taj Hargey](https://www.vice.com/read/open-mosque-taj-hargey-south-africa-934). Also not a gay mosque. It’s a gay-friendly “open” mosque. South Africa’s governing body for Muslims declared it illegal. It’s been firebombed three times. Someone tried to drive a 4x4 through the front door. He’s been threatened with hanging and castration. Sorry, your objection to it not being a “gay mosque” is that it’s actually a “gay-friendly “open” mosque”? That seems like hair-splitting. > [@](#): > > So, no gay mosques, a handful of gay imams, some support groups and Islam is still dangerously homophobic. Did you forget the [gay mosque in the US](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/life-as-a-gay-imam-isnt-as-bad-as-it-sounds) I mentioned directly to you earlier? In a post that [you quoted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19399809&postcount=62), and therefore (I hope) you read? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/119 "2016-06-12T23:33:56Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > nani, you said “based on what I know of you and where you live”. . . . . Are you by any chance a Muslim? Because having Muslims know where I live is not high on my list of preferences. Okay, Okay, I am being a bit paranoid. See, that head-in-ass “sweeping generalization” stuff I was talking about? Prime example. In any case, dude, all any of us on these boards know about where you live is [what](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7558292&postcount=1) [you](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17734050&postcount=8) [have](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19313734&postcount=19) voluntarily told us. > [@Valteron in 2006](#): > > As a francophone Canadian whose TV, radio, movies and literature survive fine against the US onslaught, I am sick and tired of my tax money being used […] > [@Valteron in 2014](#): > > I am married to a person of the same sex here in Canada. > [@Valteron in 2016](#): > > Like most Canadians, I have a pension from the contributory Canada Pension Plan as well as the pension plan from the place I worked in before retirement. So if you were hoping to keep the world’s Muslims from knowing what country you live in, I’m afraid it’s a bit late to think of that. You could always emigrate, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/120 "2016-06-12T23:37:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Suppose - just for hypothetical’s sake - that 10 percent of Christians think homosexuality should be criminalized and 30 percent of Muslims think homosexuality should be a crime. > > In that case, both liberals and conservatives could present a technically truthful argument. We don’t need to hypothesize. Here [The Global Divide on Homosexuality | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/) are the results of a poll for every major country. Now mind you, I realize the question is “Should society accept homosexuality”? (yes or no) NOT whether it should be legalized. So it implies greater acceptance of gays than merely not criminalising. But I maintain it gives us some idea. On the “Yes” side we have Canada 80%, US 60%, Spain 88%, Britain 76%, etc. Every significant country in Latin America is on the “yes” side. True, we have Poland almost equally split and Russia on the “No” side, but then look at Muslim countries. Indonesia 3% “yes”, Pakistan 2%, Palestinian Territories 4%. I wonder if those clowns in “Gays for Palestine” realize, as Douglas Murray says, that if they were in Palestine they would have to flee to Israel to keep from being killed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=7)