# Does Islam drive homophobic violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202 "2016-06-12T18:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/161 "2016-06-13T14:02:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > IME when it comes to homophobia religion is the excuse rather than the driver. I’ve never met anyone spouting anti-gay religious dogma who seemed like the sort of person who would have been just fine with homosexuals had God not “instructed” them to be hateful. I’m pretty sure that if the Bible, the Koran, and the Hadith had a footnote on every page saying “Being gay is A-OK!”, (as opposed to, for instance, “Kill the one who does it and the one it is done to”), there’d be a lot less homophobia in the world. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/162 "2016-06-13T14:03:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not sure what list of 51 you are referring to, but here is a list of [56 countries in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation.](http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv3/states/?lan=en) > > Many of them are terrible, repressive places. However, many of them are democratic countries, even though they aren’t exactly Sweden. To broaden the discussion, quite a few of them are in [Freedom House’s](https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2015#.V16zQ7srJmM) middle-tiers of ranking for the openness of the country, such as Indonesia, Albana, Turkey, Lebanon, Bangladesh, Burkina-Faso, Sierra Leone, Guinea, Morocco, Malaysia, and Niger, plus several others. A few of the countries actually rate as “free” in Freedom House’s rankings, including Benin, Tunisia, and Senegal. > > The lesson is that if you come to a conclusion that clearly isn’t supported by facts, be prepared for someone to share facts to dispel your bias. But, if we narrow our focus to the topic of this thread, [things look pretty bad.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:LGBT_rights_at_the_UN.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/163 "2016-06-13T14:04:34Z")
IOW, if there were a lot less homophobia in the ancient world, there would be a lot less homophobia now. Not sure exactly why that point is important to make. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/164 "2016-06-13T14:08:06Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > IOW, if there were a lot less homophobia in the ancient world, there would be a lot less homophobia now. > > Not sure exactly why that point is important to make. The point is just that a person’s behaviour is dictated by their beliefs. If a person gets their beliefs about gay people from a 1400 year old book full of life-destroying gibberish, we can expect them to behave badly towards gay people. In other words, religion is the driver, not the excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/165 "2016-06-13T14:11:48Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > The point is just that a person’s behaviour is dictated by their beliefs. If a person gets their beliefs about gay people from a 1400 year old book full of life-destroying gibberish, we can expect them to behave badly towards gay people. In other words, religion is the driver, not the excuse. I don’t think you’ve proven that hypothesis. Here’s a counter-hypothesis that is equally consistent with the facts: conservative traditionalists in every culture tend to be both religious and homophobic. I happen to think that homophobic discourse in religion contributes greatly to the problem. But I think you oversimplify it to the point of being harmful when you declare that the problem is basically just that religious texts happen to homophobic and some people follow them literally. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/166 "2016-06-13T14:17:21Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’m pretty sure that if the Bible, the Koran, and the Hadith had a footnote on every page saying “Being gay is A-OK!”, (as opposed to, for instance, “Kill the one who does it and the one it is done to”), there’d be a lot less homophobia in the world. I am pretty sure we would never have heard of these books, if they had that footnote. These books were created at a time when such a statement would have been outrageous. The authors would have been clobbered out of their villages, and their word would never have spread. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/167 "2016-06-13T14:37:41Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I am pretty sure we would never have heard of these books, if they had that footnote. These books were created at a time when such a statement would have been outrageous. The authors would have been clobbered out of their villages, and their word would never have spread. WRT the Koran & hadith, kindasorta. The Bible, though ? Romans & Greeks were pretty OK with the buttsecks albeit with specific guidelines (i.e. be a power top always, bottoms are un-manly !). Hell, I’d go as far as saying judeo-christian prudishness must have been a big downer for the people of the Empire when it became a forced religion ; as well as for the various European tribes who got themselves christified down the line. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/168 "2016-06-13T15:06:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Islamophobe? Is it truly irrational to be wary of an irrational ideology based on superstition? Probably. Most religions are mostly harmless most of the time, and some are sometimes in some ways even socially beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/169 "2016-06-13T15:29:01Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > The point is just that a person’s behaviour is dictated by their beliefs. If a person gets their beliefs about gay people from a 1400 year old book full of life-destroying gibberish, we can expect them to behave badly towards gay people. In other words, religion is the driver, not the excuse. \ The Old Testament is more like 3,000 years old \ ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/170 "2016-06-13T15:48:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That’s how you get ugly and bigoted overgeneralizations like the OP saying he “would genuinely be scared if Muslims knew my real address”. Not “violent extremist Muslims”, not “homophobic fanatical Muslims”, just **any** “Muslims” at all. You’re underestimating the level of vulnerability that we in the LGBT community are feeling right now. It’s been many years since my husband and I have frequented gay bars or clubs, yet when we think of those slaughtered in Orlando, we can’t help but feel “That could have been us.” And we can’t help wondering how many of the killer’s non-violent, garden-variety Muslims preached the kind of irrationality that pushed him over the edge. And how often was homophobia preached in his mosque by his peaceful, non-violent Imam? You don’t have to be a fanatical extremist for your words to kill. Perhaps tomorrow I’ll be able to think more analytically about this, but right now the sense of raw personal vulnerability has overwhelmed me. At least for today, I don’t want Muslims to know my real address either. Yes, of course this is an “ugly and bigoted generalization,” but I’d be lying to pretend these feelings don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/171 "2016-06-13T15:52:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > A few of the countries actually rate as “free” in Freedom House’s rankings, including Benin, Tunisia, and Senegal. This seems strange, considering that homosexual acts in Senegal are punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment and in Tunisia it is up to 3 years imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/172 "2016-06-13T15:57:48Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And we can’t help wondering how many of the killer’s non-violent, garden-variety Muslims preached the kind of irrationality that pushed him over the edge. And how often was homophobia preached in his mosque by his peaceful, non-violent Imam? Why do you think there’s anything wrong with wondering that, or anyone who would disagree that that is a valid question to ask? Obviously, not every hateful sermon or khutbah leads to violence. But you are perfectly justified in wondering what kind of mosque this guy went to. You might learn that, in fact, he didn’t regularly attend mosque, which tends to be the case for these kinds of guys. Or you might learn that his mosque was relatively inclusive. I’ve been to many Jumu’ahs in the US. The ones I’ve seen mentioning homosexuality at all have involved the kind of tolerance for living in a pluralistic society that you’d like to see in such a sermon. Obviously, more hateful sermons are given in the US. But they are far from universal. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/173 "2016-06-13T16:19:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But, if we narrow our focus to the topic of this thread, [things look pretty bad.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:LGBT_rights_at_the_UN.svg) > [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems strange, considering that homosexual acts in Senegal are punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment and in Tunisia it is up to 3 years imprisonment. If you ask different questions, you’ll get different answers. I’m responding to a post that said that 51 Muslim countries are not “democratic.” Quoting my post and talking about LGBT rights, environmental protections, gun control laws, or the impact of climate change in those countries are all important issues, but not on the same topic. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/174 "2016-06-13T16:58:19Z")
It may be to much to ask. I think we need Muslims to join with the gay community in protest at this horrific massacre, not to show a change in their religious beliefs but to make a stand against the barbaric preacher’s who advocate the violent death of members of the gay community. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/175 "2016-06-13T17:00:22Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > The answer is the guy did open a gay-friendly mosque that is basically hidden in a Buddhist temple which also answers the security question. It’s pretty much in hiding. The guy who established it is now living in South Africa? So is it still open? Out of all the mosques and Muslims in Europe I know of only one gay-friendly mosque, hidden, and its imam is now living in South Africa and now I’m not sure if that single gay-friendly mosque still exists. Again, I have to admit I’m confused as to your approach here. You’re asking questions and talking about what you’re wondering about, but that doesn’t seem to match up to reading the cites that I’m giving to you or doing Googling on your own. Saying that you only know of one gay-friendly mosque when you don’t seem to be too keen on researching the matter seems like it might be a self-caused issue. > [@](#): > > Yes, the dearth of gay-tolerant mosques and the attitudes of the greater Muslim community speaks directly to how homophobic Islam is. What other Paris imams think is totally relevant. Ok. Here is an article which talks about Imams across France denouncing the large terrorist attacks in Paris last year, led by the overarching Islamic council in France. There’s apparently a lot of refutation of such violence and depravity, which is not “authentic Islam”, on a theological level. Would you take their word on matters of Islam here as readily as you did just there? > [@](#): > > Call it what you want, there aren’t very many of them. Excuse me, but I think this is actually an important issue, and I actually do care that LGBT and LGBT-friendly Muslims are able to find safe places to worship or just in general. It’s important to recognise those when they exist; I shan’t be “calling it what I want”, and I urge you to not speak so cavalierly. > [@](#): > > One reform mosque. So? There were[2106 mosques in the US](https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-mosques-united-states-8b4fc81d9af1eb60?qo=contentSimilarQuestions#) as of 2010, there is apparently an on-going mosque building boom so by now there could be 3000 mosques in the US and a single one is gay-friendly and it was started by a former Baptist. You _still_ haven’t read my cite? I brought it up, you quoted it and didn’t read it, I brought it back to your attention after you forgot about it and again you didn’t read it to see that the imam of the US mosque in question talks about other inclusive mosques? About the significant increase in the number? I believe I’m seeing why you didn’t know about gay mosques. Sources delivered as directly to you short of actually being there are either not being read or just being read and forgotten. This is not an impressive display of curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/176 "2016-06-13T17:08:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems strange, considering that homosexual acts in Senegal are punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment and in Tunisia it is up to 3 years imprisonment. Just fifteen years ago, homosexual acts were punishable by imprisonment in a fair swathe of the United States ([Lawrence v. Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas) struck down sodomy laws only in 2003.) This decision was met by considerable wailing and gnashing of teeth; in my state (Kansas), for example, the sodomy law remains on the books, our legislature having declined to remove it even when they restructured the criminal code in 2011. Fifteen years isn’t exactly a great amount of time on the cosmic scale, and I think it’s kind of silly to hold ourselves out as so much better and so much more advanced just because our courts invalidated such laws within living memory of every single voter. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/177 "2016-06-13T17:12:20Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > It may be to much to ask. I think we need Muslims to join with the gay community in protest at this horrific massacre, not to show a change in their religious beliefs but to make a stand against the barbaric preacher’s who advocate the violent death of members of the gay community. [This](http://www.mediamonitors.net/riadabdelkarim3.html) [happens](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm) [every](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/paris-terror-muslim-leaders-around-the-world-condemn-heinous-attacks-a6734711.html) [time](http://www.news24.com.ng/National/News/Muslim-group-denounces-Boko-Haram-terror-20151002) there’s attacks like this. [Including](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-gay-nightclub-shooting-muslim-leader-tells-isis-you-do-not-speak-for-us-you-are-an-a7079626.html)[this](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-muslim-reaction/85790320/) [one](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-orlando-nightclub-shooting-churches-20160612-story.html). Every time. It’s not too much to ask. It always happens. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/178 "2016-06-13T17:26:37Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Just fifteen years ago, homosexual acts were punishable by imprisonment in a fair swathe of the United States ([Lawrence v. Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas) struck down sodomy laws only in 2003.) This decision was met by considerable wailing and gnashing of teeth; in my state (Kansas), for example, the sodomy law remains on the books, our legislature having declined to remove it even when they restructured the criminal code in 2011. > > Fifteen years isn’t exactly a great amount of time on the cosmic scale, and I think it’s kind of silly to hold ourselves out as so much better and so much more advanced just because our courts invalidated such laws within living memory of every single voter. Yes I agree. However, I wasn’t the one holding up Senegal and Tunisia as “Free” democratic nations of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/179 "2016-06-13T17:40:02Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > [This](http://www.mediamonitors.net/riadabdelkarim3.html) [happens](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm) [every](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/paris-terror-muslim-leaders-around-the-world-condemn-heinous-attacks-a6734711.html) [time](http://www.news24.com.ng/National/News/Muslim-group-denounces-Boko-Haram-terror-20151002) there’s attacks like this. [Including](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-gay-nightclub-shooting-muslim-leader-tells-isis-you-do-not-speak-for-us-you-are-an-a7079626.html)[this](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-muslim-reaction/85790320/) [one](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-orlando-nightclub-shooting-churches-20160612-story.html). Every time. > > It’s not too much to ask. It always happens. Could you point out where in those links there is mention of gays or the LGBT community? It’s nice that Muslims talk about “peace” and they totally don’t support extremism and stuff, but I’m not hearing anyone talk about Islam’s attitudes towards gays. The one guy took the daring step of referring to “other minorities” but never dared to actually utter the word “gay” or “LGBT.” The last link had a 14 minute clip of an Imam talking about how they’re totally not into violence and didn’t radicalize the guy but I didn’t listen to the whole thing. Did he ever mention gays or LGBT? Even once? Sure, a few individual gay Muslims can take to twitter and say “I’m gay and Muslim” but so what? I’d expect that. I’m not seeing Islam marching down the street arm-in-arm with the LGBT community. Where is the imam saying flat out right to the camera “we teach tolerance, acceptance and love towards the LGBT community?” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202/180 "2016-06-13T17:48:41Z")
It’s a shame that you’re happy to rest on your assumption that no such statements exist instead of actively looking for them. I’ve seen half-a-dozen letters from Imams saying things along the lines of members of the LGBT community having the right to live as they wish in a free society and calling for an end to the preaching of hate against them. I’m not going to bother going through the tweets and Facebook posts to find you links, though. If all your years of following the issue lead you to believe that 99.99999999% of Muslims are bigots, a few more pieces of counter-evidence aren’t going to change your mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-islam-drive-homophobic-violence/757202.md?page=10)