# Does Israel have nuclear weapons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007 "2006-03-04T03:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/21 "2006-03-04T07:50:13Z")
> [@Eleusis](#): > > Where THE FUCK did I get the idea that France sold Israel nukes back in the '80s? Not exactly, but read my link above. France gave a lot of help to Israel with its early nuclear program. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/22 "2006-03-04T08:33:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I never understand the ability of countries/politicians to “pretend”. If everyone “knows” Israel has nukes how does maintaining the fiction that they don’t help matters? … like having a wife who you saw flirting outrageously with other guys and finding used condoms and mens clothes in your bedroom on numerous occasions but as long as you never actually caught her in the act you maintain the fiction that nothing is happening and your wife is faithful. Actually, that’s a pretty good reason to “pretend”. Your cheating-wife analogy has one big political advantage—by pretending not to notice, you can go on living your life with your usual routine. As soon as you make a big issue of it, you have to go make huge changes—and no politician wants to do that. If you chose not to “pretend”–you have to go to divorce court, upset your life, sell your house, ruin your finances, start searching for a new spouse, and all your friends have to decide whether to join sides with you or with your wife, and cut off relations with the other. That’s a political problem. It’s easier just to pretend not to notice… ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/23 "2006-03-04T08:47:56Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Actually, that’s a pretty good reason to “pretend”. Your cheating-wife analogy has one big political advantage—by pretending not to notice, you can go on living your life with your usual routine. Does the US pretend not to notice, though? What would we be doing differently if we did notice. India developed weapons far more recently the Israel, and yet our relations with them are probably better now then in any time in the past. Ditto Pakistan. I couldn’t find any offical gov’t list of nuclear states, but if such a thing does exist, I wouldn’t be suprised to find that we do in fact include Israel on it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/24 "2006-03-04T16:20:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I would think if Israel uses nukes it is because they are faced with an immediate threat of annhilation. At that point I doubt they’d care that their use would bring about their annhilation. Agreed, although there is a difference between perception and reality. The US subscribed to the notion of “tactical” or battlefield nuclear weapons (as does the current occupant of the White House, whether due to indiffference to the result or obtuseness about the same) despite the fact that it is well appreciated in the post-Cuban Missile Crisis world that the use, or even threat of use, of any size nuclear weapon creates the opportunity and justification for virtually unlimited widening of the application of nukes, up to a full strategic exchange. When you can wipe out entire divisions, armies, or fleets, there’s no reason for your opponent not to respond with equally destructive power, and so forth. In game theory terms, there is no Nash Equilibrium when it comes to a nuclear exchange; there’s no point at which it is advantageous for both sides to think to themselves “I’ll use this much of my inventory and no more.” On this basis, it is bad news for everyone if Israel uses the threat, even implied, that it has nuclear capacity. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I never understand the ability of countries/politicians to “pretend”. If everyone “knows” Israel has nukes how does maintaining the fiction that they don’t help matters? That this seems to be political reality I am not disputing but it just seems like a load of crap to me. It is a load of crap from any objective point of view, but in fact nations have, do, and will no doubt continue to pretend, both to moderate interactions with other nations and to save face at home. Consider, if I may kick this deceased equine a bit longer, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Krushchev agreed, after a couple of desperate communications between the Kremlin and the White House, to remove nuclear weapons and ballisitic missiles from Cuba in exchange for the US dropping the blockade and (secretly) removing IRBMs from Turkey and Italy. The result? Krushchev claimed victory, 'cause he saved Cuba from invasion. Kennedy claimed victory; he faced down the Bear and forced her to remove missiles from Cuba. The reality? Nobody won a damn thing; the Soviet missiles were highly inaccurate, unlikely to make a successful direcgt strike on Washington. The removal of IRBMs from Southern Europe was in line with plans to deploy US-based ICBMs anyway; the Jupiter and Thor were always interim solutions anyway. Cuba comes off best–they didn’t get turned into a pile of slag, and Castro got to shake his hand at the imperialist dogs to the north. The whole thing, in retrospect, was a silly clash of egos. But for everyone to be able to claim victory was important for all parties involved. Pretending that Israel has no weapons allows the US to make the facile claim of being a nominally neutral party in Mid-East interests, thus allowing anti-Israel nations to maintain diplomatic and economic channels without appearing to compromise their positions. Israel feels safe(r), and thus is less likely to engage in more land grabs as a pre-emptive measure. Everybody knows that a major military effort could result in The Very Bad Nastiness, and so parties are somewhat more reserved than they would be otherwise. “The Syndicate makes a profit. And everybody gets a share.” Joseph Heller quite knew what he was on about, and the principle wasn’t limited to WWII. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/25 "2006-03-04T16:46:17Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Pretending that Israel has no weapons allows the US to make the facile claim of being a nominally neutral party in Mid-East interests Again, can we get a cite for any current US gov’t official claiming Israel doesn’t have nuclear weapons? I’m not conviced the US does this in any substatiative way. Israel doesn’t admit to having weapons (though I don’t think it denies having them any longer either) but I’m not conviced that the US has bought into this fiction in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/26 "2006-03-04T17:54:08Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Again, can we get a cite for any current US gov’t official claiming Israel doesn’t have nuclear weapons? I’m not conviced the US does this in any substatiative way. > > Israel doesn’t admit to having weapons (though I don’t think it denies having them any longer either) but I’m not conviced that the US has bought into this fiction in any way. Well, we’re not insisting on IAEA oversight or protesting proliferation the way we are with, say, Iran, Pakistan, or North Korea. And we’re not using it as an excuse (real or imagined) for regime change as we are in a certain Middle East nation. For the US to accept Israel owning or maintaining a nuclear arsenal would remove whatever high road claim we have to protesting against proliferation. Like the “Two Chinas” issue, and your great-aunt up in her locked attic room, we pretend that if we don’t talk about the issue that it doesn’t exist. It’s a Bluebeard Problem, to which the solution is to feign ignorance, at least in public. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/27 "2006-03-04T18:13:38Z")
Maybe. I’m not conviced that not doing anything about Israels weapons is the same as denying they have them. After all, we’re not doing anything substantial about Indias weapons either, even though they’ve gone the extra step and actually exploded one. And on TV when various politicians are asked why the double standard for Israels weapons vs, say Irans, the usual response is not “Israel doesn’t really have weapons” but some variant of “because they’re different” (either because their an ally, a democracy, they already have the weapons vs Irans program to develop, etc.) > [@](#): > > Well, we’re not insisting on IAEA oversight or protesting proliferation the way we are with, say, Iran, Pakistan, or North Korea. Iran and N. Korea are NPT signers, and so IAEA inspections can be seen as part of thier treaty obligations. We’re not really _insisting_ Pakistan agree to IAEA inspections. By my understanding, they’ve been asked to voluntarily submit to inspections, which they’ve agreed to do so to the extent that suits them. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/28 "2006-03-05T07:11:20Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > [Mordechai Vanunu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu) was gaoled by Israel revealing details of Israel’s nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986. He spent 18 years in prison, 11 of which were in solitary confinement. > > He was an Israeli nuclear technician. > > Lots of bibliography in the above linked wiki article. > > The [Sunday Times article](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-1081668,00.html). well, there you have it. surely they would not have punished him for telling the truth, so he must have been spreading a calumny. It is conclusinve–Israel is nuke-free… ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/29 "2006-03-08T16:41:10Z")
I googled up [this paper](http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm) which seems fairly well-researched and ‘official’, given that it’s written by a US Army officer and hosted by the Air Force University. I have no idea whether it is accurate or not, but it does make some pretty eye-opening claims. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/30 "2006-03-08T22:01:32Z")
[QUOTE=Greenback] I read (no cite) that while Israel did not possess nukes, they can produce them within three days if deemed necessary. No idea where I read that. [/QUOTE] You may be misremembering what you read. That claim is sometimes made of Japan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/31 "2006-03-08T22:09:11Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Like the “Two Chinas” issue, and your great-aunt up in her locked attic room, we pretend that if we don’t talk about the issue that it doesn’t exist. [/QUOTE] Of course, many issues **don’t** exist unless they’re talked about. The “Two Chinas” issue is an obvious example. The PRC can afford to ignore Taiwan – if it wants to. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/32 "2006-03-08T22:50:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Of course, many issues **don’t** exist unless they’re talked about. The “Two Chinas” issue is an obvious example. The PRC can afford to ignore Taiwan – if it wants to. [/QUOTE] But it doesn’t. And from the billions of dollars of military support provided by the US, neither do we. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![schindler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@schindler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schindler)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/33 "2009-09-13T18:41:10Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Not exactly, but read my link above. France gave a lot of help to Israel with its early nuclear program. i believe France paid for/helped with the nuclear reactor in Dimona. and i believe it was in the 50’s. before and during the Suez War, the two countries were chummy. things cooled off in the sixties. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/34 "2009-09-13T18:55:09Z")
Its not surprising if Israel surrounded by the genocidal lunatics that she is does have nukes. I would not be stunned with amazement if she had the technological knowhow to develop them independantly,just as I wouldn’t be SWA if she and the previous South African regime co operated together on making them. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/35 "2009-09-13T19:03:41Z")
['Israel and the Bomb' : Documents : The Battle over the NPT](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/battle/index.html) Kennedy was against proliferation and wanted Israel not to have them. They were like Iran and lied about what they were working on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/36 "2009-09-14T11:22:58Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Isreal does in fact have nukes then they got them from the U.S. Nope, they got them from South Africa. Remember, South Africa developed our own nuclear arsenal. Of course, we gave it up again. Go us! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/37 "2009-09-14T11:49:13Z")
Oooh - nuclear zombie! > [@Lust4Life](#): > > I would not be stunned with amazement if she had the technological knowhow to develop them independantly Oh, come on. Who ever heard of a Jewish nuclear physicist? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/38 "2009-09-14T12:41:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oooh - nuclear zombie! > > Oh, come on. Who ever heard of a Jewish nuclear physicist? Not even Einstein would think of that! ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/39 "2009-09-14T13:59:42Z")
As stated Mordechai Vanunu blabbed that Israel had over 200 nuclear weapons- far more than anyone estimated. (From Espionages Most Wanted by Tom E. Mahl. I am not saying that it is gospel). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007/40 "2009-09-14T18:16:55Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Does the US pretend not to notice, though? What would we be doing differently if we did notice. India developed weapons far more recently the Israel, and yet our relations with them are probably better now then in any time in the past. Ditto Pakistan. > > I couldn’t find any offical gov’t list of nuclear states, but if such a thing does exist, I wouldn’t be suprised to find that we do in fact include Israel on it. [http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20090602/155150021.html](http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20090602/155150021.html) Here’s one from the Russians. The definition of nuclear state is one that had them before 1967. Israel is listed a a member of the nuclear club. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-nuclear-weapons/347007.md?page=3)