# Does Israel have to stay where it is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657 "2014-08-02T17:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/41 "2014-08-02T19:40:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is nothing “migratory” about being forced off your land. What on earth makes you think Israelis would leave without a fight? I think fighting is inevitable. I don’t see such a scenario even being considered in anything but a catastrophic invasion scenario, the likes of which Martin Hyde has reasonably discounted. I don’t think “without a fight” would apply to any sort of possible outcome in that region. It’s just a matter of how many must die. > [@](#): > > Well, with all due respect, you’ll have to do a lot better job explaining the advantages of this plan to the UN than you’re doing here. How many members of the UNSC do you see agreeing to this? True enough. But then again, I don’t particularly see the UNSC as being particularly amicable to anything that will increases the overall happiness of humanity if it means any of the SC members get slighted in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/42 "2014-08-02T19:40:42Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > It would be nice if such a thing could be done with minimal bloodshed. Unlike Hitler, I am not particularly fond of dead Jews. > > It won’t happen, of course. It’s just interesting to think about. No less crazy than any other scenario for world peace. I agree, and I’ve made the suggestion in the past, but it’s the kind of thing that will probably remain a pipe dream for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/43 "2014-08-02T19:41:06Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > I am sorry that your people have suffered so much over the ages. I’d like nothing more than to see you all live in peace with your neighbors and flourish. And he’s willing to have you shot in the head to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/44 "2014-08-02T19:41:14Z")
Is openly advocating for ethnic cleansing not considered hate speech? Perhaps since, by the OP’s admission he’s not trying to convince anybody, this belongs in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/45 "2014-08-02T19:43:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Of course it can. You just have to make light of religion. Imagine there’s no yadda yadda. Probably not in my lifetime. Still, at some point the imaginary friend fuckery has \*\*got \*\*to wear thin… hasn’t it ? > > As for cultural history going back thousands of years, I’m not seeing modern Americans recognizing a Right of Return to Cahokia. “It was their land, three thousand years ago” means fuck all every and anywhere else in the world. Why should Israel be any different ? > The answer is, of course, it isn’t. It just has the might to make the right. I’m pretty sure the time to bring that up was in 1945, when borders were being redrawn worldwide for all kinds of reasons. You can probably quibble with every one of those countries in retrospect. I also know that most European countries from Ireland to Latvia allow citizenship to Americans and others if they have ancestry in those countries… isn’t that basically the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/46 "2014-08-02T19:45:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Is openly advocating for ethnic cleansing not considered hate speech? Eh, well, I don’t hate the Israelis, much less the Jews overall. I do kinda hate religious fanaticism, though. It is just sad seeing this conflict reignite itself every other hour. The mods can move it wherever they want, if they deem it necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/47 "2014-08-02T19:46:32Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I wasn’t making any claims; just explaining why suggestions to the current Jewish residents of Israel to rent them U-Hauls and drive them to Canada are not likely to be well-met. I apologize for assuming it of you. I have seen Israelis using this claim repeatedly and it bothers me immensely. Their use of religion to justify Israeli actions makes it impossible to argue with them (a common theme in religious debates). Unfortunately, when policy is significantly influenced by such “unassailable” logic, you get costly and bloody impasses such as the current one. This is not to say that modern Israelis are in the moral wrong for living where they do; just that many of them justify it on the religious grounds rather than on a secular-historical and political basis. I’m sure most on this board agree that this is impedes progress toward peace. Edit: On the flip side, I was on an interview a couple years ago where one of my fellow interviewees was an American Arab. At one point the dinner discussion drifted politics and the issue came up, despite most of us trying to tiptoe around it. The interviewee in question said, verbatim (to the best of my memory), “There’s no argument here. The Quran says that all of that land belongs to us”. Mind you, this was at an interview for an academic (scientific) position where all applicants were expected to be capable of fact-based reasoning. So, I don’t mean to imply that this ignorance comes only from Israelis; just that it should be fought wherever it arises. I admit to not doing so in that instance. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/48 "2014-08-02T19:48:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And he’s willing to have you shot in the head to make it happen. Would gladly give it if it means lasting regional peace. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/49 "2014-08-02T20:05:41Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Eh, well, I don’t hate the Israelis, much less the Jews overall. I do kinda hate religious fanaticism, though. It is just sad seeing this conflict reignite itself every other hour. The mods can move it wherever they want, if they deem it necessary. Considering that the Israelis are motivated not by “religious fanaticism” but by secular, blood and soil nationalism, you’re not inspiring much confidence in your knowledge of or ability to analyze the region or the people who live there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/50 "2014-08-02T20:11:33Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Would gladly give it if it means lasting regional peace. There is much more bloodshed in Iraq and Syria these days than in Israel. What is it about the Jews that makes you want to move them? Maybe we should move the Sunnis out of Iraq. Or the Alawites out of Syria. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/51 "2014-08-02T20:16:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that the Israelis are motivated not by “religious fanaticism” but by secular, blood and soil nationalism, you’re not inspiring much confidence in your knowledge of or ability to analyze the region or the people who live there. It’s more their enemies that want them out on religious grounds. The Jewish intertwining of culture and religion may contribute to their sense of nationalism, but I don’t know enough to say? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is much more bloodshed in Iraq and Syria these days than in Israel. What is it about the Jews that makes you want to move them? Maybe we should move the Sunnis out of Iraq. Or the Alawites out of Syria. Don’t know what’s happening in Syria, sorry. Iraq seems like it’ll just fix itself when a warlord assimilates enough power to become the next Saddam. The Israeli battleground seems to be one of the longer-lasting conflicts of modern times. I’m equally interested in the Korean DMZ, for example, and have asked about that in the past. It’s just that Gaza is getting a lot of attention recently. ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/52 "2014-08-02T20:20:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that the Israelis are motivated not by “religious fanaticism” but by secular, blood and soil nationalism, you’re not inspiring much confidence in your knowledge of or ability to analyze the region or the people who live there. Do you know of any polls about Israeli self-justification on religious vs. secular grounds? I ask because I’ve seen a fairly even split; however, I’m in America and my sample size of Israelis is very small. Is it fair to assume that the outlying settlements in the West Bank would answer differently on whole than the section of the population within the original borders? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/53 "2014-08-02T20:20:48Z")
99% of the problems in Israel is caused by people thinking that if they can just shoot a few more rockets, blow up a few more school children, cut off their own noses just a little bit harder - then this time, for sure! - the Israelis will leave! The Israelis are not leaving. Any “peace plan” that doesn’t include a sovereign state of Israel, in its current location, is a waste of everybody’s time - and worse. This is not necessarily true of the Palestinians. Oh, I get that we can’t just sweep them into shipping containers and mail them off (to Vladimir Putin’s vacation house, ideally). The Palestinians could have had a state seventy years ago. They could have had one in 1968. In 1973. In 1998. They keep fucking it up. Mind you - no one actually gives a shit about them. All of the people encouraging them to fight are doing so to enrich their own pockets and distract other nations from their own home problems. If the Palestinians get a state, it will be because people more important and powerful than themselves agree to give them one. But every year, their situation becomes more remote and the rest of the world becomes more used to the status quo. Every year, the Israeli wall gets stronger and more complete. Every year, the Palestinians get just a little bit poorer and whole lot deader. If the Palestinians want to salvage anything from this mess, they need to stop dreaming about the impossible and start focusing on the possible. Anything that encourages the Palestinians to think that they will eradicate Israel and rule everything from the river to the sea is contributing to their problems. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/54 "2014-08-02T20:21:45Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Don’t know what’s happening in Syria, sorry. Sorry, but I have to snip this and just address it alone. You’re trying to achieve regional peace, and you don’t know what’s going on is Syria? Syria borders on Israel, so one would assume it counts as “the region”. Why should anyone take your suggestions about how to achieve regional peace seriously, when you do know much at all about the actual region in question? [Please read this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/55 "2014-08-02T20:22:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Is openly advocating for ethnic cleansing not considered hate speech? . . . Not intrinsically. It might be somewhat related, but it isn’t, exactly. The fantasy (and, obviously, it can never be more than that) is that everyone in Israel is persuaded peacefully to pack up and relocate. Maybe they’re paid. Maybe they are just shown, logically, how much more sense it makes than the current situation. They all go voluntarily and happily. No “hate” involved. Unrealistic? Hell yeah. But “hateful?” Not in the (fantasy) terms proposed. (Anyway, the Palestinians would reject it too, because, while it gets Israel out, it doesn’t let them back in!) ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/56 "2014-08-02T20:25:16Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > 99% of the problems in Israel is caused by people thinking that if they can just shoot a few more rockets, blow up a few more school children, cut off their own noses just a little bit harder - then this time, for sure! - the Israelis will leave! > > The Israelis are not leaving. > > Any “peace plan” that doesn’t include a sovereign state of Israel, in its current location, is a waste of everybody’s time - and worse. > > This is not necessarily true of the Palestinians. Oh, I get that we can’t just sweep them into shipping containers and mail them off (to Vladimir Putin’s vacation house, ideally). The Palestinians could have had a state seventy years ago. They could have had one in 1968. In 1973. In 1998. They keep fucking it up. Mind you - no one actually gives a shit about them. All of the people encouraging them to fight are doing so to enrich their own pockets and distract other nations from their own home problems. If the Palestinians get a state, it will be because people more important and powerful than themselves agree to give them one. **But every year, their situation becomes more remote and the rest of the world becomes more used to the status quo.** Every year, the Israeli wall gets stronger and more complete. Every year, the Palestinians get just a little bit poorer and whole lot deader. > > If the Palestinians want to salvage anything from this mess, they need to stop dreaming about the impossible and start focusing on the possible. Anything that encourages the Palestinians to think that they will eradicate Israel and rule everything from the river to the sea is contributing to their problems. Mind if I ask where you are? In my demographic (American, under 30), the opposite seems to be the case. I’ve read that other American Jews are [also noticing this to be the case](http://davidbyrne.com/gaza-and-the-loss-of-civilization). I agree with your last paragraph entirely, but you’re mistaken in assuming that “nobody actually gives a shit about them”. I think that will be increasingly false over the coming years, at least within my demographic. Now, how far anyone will go to help them is anyone’s guess, but the support for their right to a livelihood is present (education about how Israel and Palestine reached the current standoff is sadly absent). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/57 "2014-08-02T20:25:34Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Not intrinsically. It might be somewhat related, but it isn’t, exactly. > > The fantasy (and, obviously, it can never be more than that) is that everyone in Israel is persuaded peacefully to pack up and relocate. Maybe they’re paid. Maybe they are just shown, logically, how much more sense it makes than the current situation. They all go voluntarily and happily. > > No “hate” involved. > > Unrealistic? Hell yeah. But “hateful?” Not in the (fantasy) terms proposed. > > (Anyway, the Palestinians would reject it too, because, while it gets Israel out, it doesn’t let them back in!) Worse… it kicks them out, too. The whole area is supposed to be Yosemite, without any rangers or maintenance people. Just visitors. Peaceful visitors, of course. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/58 "2014-08-02T20:27:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sorry, but I have to snip this and just address it alone. > > You’re trying to achieve regional peace, and you don’t know what’s going on is Syria? Syria borders on Israel, so one would assume it counts as “the region”. Why should anyone take your suggestions about how to achieve regional peace seriously, when you do know much at all about the actual region in question? No, I don’t know what’s going on there. Last I heard, they had some sort of civil war, the Americans bombed a few things, and the conflict continued. I will also admit I didn’t know it bordered Israel. I would like to reiterate that I started this thread as a question, because I wanted to know why such a thing would or would not work. It’s not so much a suggestion as much as a request for discussion. If you want to explain how it all ties together more, I would appreciate it, but if not, I’ll do some more reading on Wikipedia later. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/59 "2014-08-02T20:33:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Please read this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War) Oh, yeah, I had heard things about ISIS, I just thought they were another Iraqi faction. Damn, that is one long article. I’ve skimmed it and will read it more thoroughly later. Is there an easy description of its relevance towards the Israeli conflicts? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/60 "2014-08-02T20:34:16Z")
I’m not going to read the whole thread because I think it’s profoundly stupid, but I’m just going to say that we’re staying here because all our shit is already here. You know - houses, roads, schools, shopping malls, movie theaters, factories, schools, colleges, opera houses, strip clubs, restaurants, bars, vintage clothing stores, tattoo parlors, farms… you know, stuff. Stuff we’ve worked very hard to build for the past century or so, and we’re not going to give up under any circumstances imaginable. So how’s about this - you spend the hundreds of billions - or may be trillions - of dollars it would take to build whole new country for seven million people, build everything, give us full sovereignty and control of our borders, and maybe then we’ll think about moving. Because until then, you’re just pissin’ in the wind. You know what? We’ll take New York City. Just vacate its current residents and we’ll move right in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657.md?page=4)