# Does Israel have to stay where it is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657 "2014-08-02T17:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/61 "2014-08-02T20:36:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m not going to read the whole thread because I think it’s profoundly stupid, but I’m just going to say that we’re staying here because all our shit is already here. You know - houses, roads, schools, shopping malls, movie theaters, factories, schools, colleges, opera houses, strip clubs, restaurants, bars, vintage clothing stores, tattoo parlors, farms… you know, stuff. Stuff we’ve worked very hard to build for the past century or so, and we’re not going to give up under any circumstances imaginable. > > So how’s about this - you spend the hundreds of billions - or may be trillions - of dollars it would take to build whole new country for seven million people, build everything, give us full sovereignty and control of our borders, and maybe then we’ll think about moving. Because until then, you’re just pissin’ in the wind. > > You know what? We’ll take New York City. Just vacate its current residents and we’ll move right in. Fine with me. It’d be like two days of our defense budget. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/62 "2014-08-02T20:43:17Z")
You really don’t know what a home is, do you? I was born here, so was my child, and God willing so will my grandchildren some day. You think that you or anyone else can make us leave the country we built with our own hands, the country that we love? Where we have _roots_?In return for some fucking charity? Go look for your friends. Let me tell you something else - the more people want us to leave, the more we want to stay. We’re assholes like that. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/63 "2014-08-02T20:48:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So how’s about this - you spend the hundreds of billions - or may be trillions - of dollars it would take to build whole new country for seven million people, build everything, give us full sovereignty and control of our borders, and maybe then we’ll think about moving. You mean you’d really turn down an offer to tow the whole country and all your stuff out into a nice part of the South Pacific? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/64 "2014-08-02T20:49:30Z")
OP, it sounds like your motivation is mostly to reduce personal stress on yourself when reading the news. It’s as if you’re worried that you’ll get drafted or something if there is enough of a chain reaction from the Middle East. It’s not really a healthy place to be and you’ll just have to do the same thing in Korea, Ukraine, etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/65 "2014-08-02T20:51:58Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > No, I don’t know what’s going on there. Last I heard, they had some sort of civil war, the Americans bombed a few things, and the conflict continued. I will also admit I didn’t know it bordered Israel. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/66 "2014-08-02T20:56:06Z")
How many people have died in the Israel-Palestine conflict over the last 10 years? Like 10K or so? More lately, but that’s not so much in the grand scheme of things. If you’re such a bleeding heart you want to save people by moving them over here I’d look to Africa. Way more bang for your buck there. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/67 "2014-08-02T20:58:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You really don’t know what a home is, do you? > > I was born here, so was my child, and God willing so will my grandchildren some day. You think that you or anyone else can make us leave the country we built with our own hands, the country that we love? Where we have _roots_?In return for some fucking charity? Go look for your friends. Yeah, I guess not. Never stayed in a place for more than a few years. Both countries I’ve resided in (Taiwan and the USA) are younger than some tortoises. The idea of being so attached to a piece of land makes little sense to me, but then again I guess we haven’t had our territorial integrity threatened since we took it from the natives, so I don’t know what that feels like. > [@](#): > > Let me tell you something else - the more people want us to leave, the more we want to stay. We’re assholes like that. Not entirely unexpected. That’s why I’m fantasizing about it on the SDMB instead of seriously proposing it anywhere. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > OP, it sounds like your motivation is mostly to reduce personal stress on yourself when reading the news. It’s as if you’re worried that you’ll get drafted or something if there is enough of a chain reaction from the Middle East. It’s not really a healthy place to be and you’ll just have to do the same thing in Korea, Ukraine, etc, etc. Korea, [done](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=722122). Ukraine, did that on Facebook. Not too worried about drafting (too old, too fat), but I just like to think about these things – though apparently not enough. > [@Terr](#): > > Wow. The ignorance, it’s astounding! But hey, if it’s any consolation, I’m a high-school dropout. I didn’t even know where the West Bank was until three years ago. Gradually learning more. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/68 "2014-08-02T21:01:38Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > The ignorance, it’s astounding! But hey, if it’s any consolation, I’m a high-school dropout. I didn’t even know where the West Bank was until three years ago. Gradually learning more. It is very good that you’re learning more. But when you post something like the OP, it’s kind of expected that you do that _after_ that period of “learning more” vs. before. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/69 "2014-08-02T21:05:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is very good that you’re learning more. But when you post something like the OP, it’s kind of expected that you do that _after_ that period of “learning more” vs. before. How am I supposed to know what I don’t know? I read the whole Israel article, and several of its links, sometime a while back, before ISIS was a thing. Not many people would do that just for fun. I’m sorry I don’t happen to be an expert in geopolitics. Like I said, I intended this as a question. I vastly prefer IMHO to GD, but very often when I post there the mods end up moving my questions to GD, so I just thought I’d start here this time. Sorry if my ignorance offends you. I’m working on it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/70 "2014-08-02T21:17:30Z")
Okay. Lets see. 7 million Israelis. Lets say 2 billion Muslims worldwide. Turn Israel into one giant religious time share complex. Every Muslim could spend a week or so there every 5 years give or take. Israelis make a fortune selling those time shares and instead start country in Australia. As long as they don’t mess with Ayers Rock things should be okay. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/71 "2014-08-02T23:05:23Z")
In all the years before Israel annexed Gaza and the West bank, why didn’t the Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians or Egyptians do something about the Palestinians? Why didn’t one or all of them deal with the issue, instead of waiting for Israel to clean up the mess they left? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/72 "2014-08-02T23:13:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why relocate the Israelis? Why not relocate the Palestinians instead? Answer that question, and I suspect you’ll find the answer to the question you asked, too. If we tried to relocate the Palestinians I believe they’d take their suicide vests with them and cause problems there too. I read a serious study a few years ago before Hong Kong was returned to China about the idea of buying half of Belize and having the free Hong Kong relocated there. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/73 "2014-08-02T23:18:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You really don’t know what a home is, do you? > > I was born here, so was my child, and God willing so will my grandchildren some day. You think that you or anyone else can make us leave the country we built with our own hands, the country that we love? Where we have _roots_?In return for some fucking charity? Go look for your friends. > > Let me tell you something else - the more people want us to leave, the more we want to stay. We’re assholes like that. But your grandparents invaded from Europe, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/74 "2014-08-02T23:22:57Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Oh, yeah, I had heard things about ISIS, I just thought they were another Iraqi faction. Damn, that is one long article. I’ve skimmed it and will read it more thoroughly later. Is there an easy description of its relevance towards the Israeli conflicts? There is nothing easy in that part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/75 "2014-08-02T23:33:28Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Oh, yeah, I had heard things about ISIS, I just thought they were another Iraqi faction. Damn, that is one long article. I’ve skimmed it and will read it more thoroughly later. Is there an easy description of its relevance towards the Israeli conflicts? There is nothing easy in that part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/76 "2014-08-02T23:43:36Z")
It’s impossible in practical terms. “Hey Israel, let’s uproot you and move you to some far destination.” 99% of Israelis would dig in (figuratively) and not budge. What could anyone do, wage united war on Israel for not budging? ---
**Author:** ![callander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@callander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/callander)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/77 "2014-08-02T23:54:23Z")
A member here, in this thread made a comment about “Haredic” Jews, and the war of the womb. I hear stuff like this often and can only think that the math is off. Reminds me of a weekend, we had a friend by, we are Jewish he is not. So we are talking and a comment was made by him about the Jewish population, I proceed to ask him what he believes the population of world Jewry is. He looked me in the eyes and said 500 million. I was shocked at the ignorance of the statement. I told him there are approx. 13 million Jews and asked him if he realized what percent 13 million was out of 7 billion. He simply responded, “impossible, I must have meet everyone of you.” Now when you get into specific segments of the population “Haredic” Jews, (israel or in the diaspora the numbers shrink yet again). Your statement re the war of the womb is ill founded in my view, or simply poor math. I suppose I am on team humanity, btw HSC said with respect. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/78 "2014-08-02T23:57:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The Jews were already in the region in large numbers before the British drew the lines, in fact they outnumbered the Muslims (80% of the population) in the area where the borders were drawn Are you sure about this? Wikipedia says: > [@](#): > > In 1920, the League of Nations’ Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine: > > There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. > > The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.[44] Even the UN partition plan only had a 55%/45% Jew/Arab split in the Jewish state (vs a 99%/1% split in the Arab state). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/79 "2014-08-03T00:00:05Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > How am I supposed to know what I don’t know? I read the whole Israel article, and several of its links, sometime a while back, before ISIS was a thing. Sadly, we are being fed a poorly-translated acronym, “ISIL” would be more accurate. And more worrisome. They really, by definition, want to be in control of the entire Levant, not just Syria. If they get very far, if I were the king of Jordan, it would make me quite nervous. Really, the UN should cede provisional political management of the region to China. The Arabs have shown themselves to be incompetent, the Jews have shown themselves to be jerks, the Druze pretty useless, and so on. China would be a nice neutral boot heel to put all of them under and stop the gratuitous violence. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/80 "2014-08-03T00:16:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Are you sure about this? Wikipedia says: > > Even the UN partition plan only had a 55%/45% Jew/Arab split in the Jewish state (vs a 99%/1% split in the Arab state). [Yes, 80%](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html) Jewish in 1948. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657.md?page=5)