# Does Israel have to stay where it is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657 "2014-08-02T17:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/161 "2014-08-05T01:52:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Japan signed a peace treaty. Where is the Palestinian peace treaty? Does injustice simply fade if the perpetrator gets away with it for long enough regardless of whether or not the victims continue to struggle for justice? Huh? You were just talking about “immigrants vs natives”, now you are suddenly talking about peace treaties. But here’s one for you: do you think Russia should give [Sakhalin Island](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin) back to Japan? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/162 "2014-08-05T02:49:36Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The _cross_? > > Really? > > What a charming choice of phrase. > > My relatives fled Poland, Hungary, Germany and probably a few other places because they were discriminated against solely for being Jewish. As far as I know some went to Israel but most went to America. I’m a little sick and tired of the world blithely telling Jews just where the fuck we get to live. Would anyone seriously entertain this kind of notion for anyone else? I live in NJ which is roughly the size of Israel so I know how tiny the place is. It’s really small but it’s still not small enough for a big chunk of the world. Hell the fucking Germans are holding > [pro-Hamas rallies](http://www.timesofisrael.com/wave-of-anti-semitic-rallies-hits-cities-across-germany/) > > I’m a secular Jew who absolutely despises the Haredim and their damned allies. I married a non-Jew. I feel sorry for the Palestinians. But I swear it is threads like this one that make me sympathize with Israelis a hundred times over. Jews are living in the ME. The world needs to get the fuck over it and move on. Lol. It was just a joke. But kudos on being a secular Jew. As it happens, I am technically a jew as my mother’s side of the family was Austrian Jews who emigrated to Canada in the 20’s. I’m sure my not jumping on board for every bit of Israeli ruthlessness makes me a self hating Jew. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/163 "2014-08-05T03:55:38Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Oh, yeah, I had heard things about ISIS, I just thought they were another Iraqi faction. Damn, that is one long article. I’ve skimmed it and will read it more thoroughly later. Is there an easy description of its relevance towards the Israeli conflicts? You need to learn about the Syria and ISIS, ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, etc. Learn about Islamic fundamentalist terrorism in general to begin to grasp why Hamas has very few Arab nations supporting it and why some Arab nations have classified it as a terrorist organization. Learn about the Soldiers of the Companions of God who make Hamas look moderate. Learn about the schism between Hamas and Fatah. Learn about the nations in which the populace has turned to Islamic fundamentalism. Learn about Salafism and Wahhabism. Learn about Arab tribalism, the fall of the Ottoman Empire, WWI, WWII, and the creation of the Arab states and how their people were ruled. Learn about twenty-five hundred years of history of the Jewish people in the Levant going back before Roman times. Quite frankly, there is no easy description to the Israeli conflict, or the many conflicts in the Levant. And there is no easy prescription, such as the hugely offensive one of ethnic cleansing that you proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/164 "2014-08-05T10:39:27Z")
I find it interesting that in WW2 many European Jews escaped the Nazis by immigrating to Japan and also that some Japanese actually courted the larger Jewish community into getting them to develop businesses and industry and whole Jewish colonies in Japanese occupied areas: [LINK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_settlement_in_the_Japanese_Empire) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/165 "2014-08-05T16:48:06Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but the traditional German city of Danzig is now… called Gdansk and it’s full of Poles! :eek: > > Seriously, crying foul over decisions made in 1945 is akin to being one of those Japanese soldier still fighting in the jungle long after the war is over. Lots of cities have been taken over multiple times. NYC, of course, used to be British before 1776, and even the British didn’t actually found it, they took it from the Dutch who had called the city Nieuw-Amsterdam. Los Angeles was a Spanish city and then a Mexican city before the US took it as war spoils. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/166 "2014-08-05T16:52:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yep. I think we should give Jerusalem to the Buddhists or rastafarians and let all the crazy religions of the country visit their centuries old holy places and worship (AFAICT) the same fucking god and wait until they leave jerusalem to kill each other over who their collective god loves best. > > The claim the natives have over the immigrants should be pretty clear regardless of who GOD loves best. Or give Jerusalem to the Scientologists. “Welcome to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. That’ll be $125.95 for a one hour visit. Please keep your body thetans off the altar.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/167 "2014-08-05T17:46:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There are other options: live peacefully with the neighbors is at the top of the list. Not part of the OP or the items Ibn brought up, so I didn’t address it > [@Trinopus](#): > > As far as Continuous War, Israel does happen to have a history of winning. You might as well condemn the U.S. or France for being at continuous war. It hasn’t always been our aggression. That’s fine. If Israel prefers the current state of affairs, it can certainly continue them. However, I was replying to what would be the best moral outcome and that was not at the top of the list > [@Trinopus](#): > > You also might as well advocate for returning southern California to Mexico, and asking the citizens of Los Angeles to move back east somewhere. The idea is not meaningful in any realistic way. At least people in Tijuana aren’t lobbing rockets at us… Does the topic have to be realistic for you to post in it? Do you post in discussions about movies and yell “Movies aren’t real!”? So why would you do that here? In the context of this topic, I think Israel should be moved as the most moral option out of the ones given. Or I could say that aliens can mind-control the Palestinians to make them think they are all sloths ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/168 "2014-08-05T19:37:02Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Huh? You were just talking about “immigrants vs natives”, now you are suddenly talking about peace treaties. Well you moved on to analogize japanese soldiers that keep fighting after a peace treaty. If the movement of the Polish/German border was not resolved by treaty, then the Germans could protest Polish occupation of their land, coudn;t they? > [@](#): > > But here’s one for you: do you think Russia should give [Sakhalin Island](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin) back to Japan? Are there millions of refugees who have been displaced and living in ghettoes for generations? Are those refugees being oppressed by the Russians? Is the status of those islands resolved by treaty by the competent authorities? IOW I don’t know what the answer to your question is but I don’t hink the answer would shed any light on how to look at the situation in israel. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/169 "2014-08-05T20:17:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well you moved on to analogize japanese soldiers that keep fighting after a peace treaty. > > If the movement of the Polish/German border was not resolved by treaty, then the Germans could protest Polish occupation of their land, coudn;t they? > > Are there millions of refugees who have been displaced and living in ghettoes for generations? > > Are those refugees being oppressed by the Russians? > > Is the status of those islands resolved by treaty by the competent authorities? > > IOW I don’t know what the answer to your question is but I don’t hink the answer would shed any light on how to look at the situation in israel. Well, I truthfully don’t even follow the Midle East conflict and I’m not interested in getting bogged down in the byzantine details & accusations either. My position is simply that - the Allies had the right to create whatever countries they damn pleased in 1945. If certain peoples feel they got a raw deal - well, they or their leaders should have thought longer and harder about which side they chose to support in that war. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/170 "2014-08-05T23:39:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > . . . In the context of this topic, I think Israel should be moved as the most moral option out of the ones given. Or I could say that aliens can mind-control the Palestinians to make them think they are all sloths Equally realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/171 "2014-08-06T03:57:36Z")
Israel can’t be moved - all those trees they planted are rooting them in place. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/172 "2014-08-06T05:38:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Israel can’t be moved - all those trees they planted are rooting them in place. They can chop them down and build themselves an … well let’s just call it an ark. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/173 "2014-08-06T12:54:49Z")
I envision a scenario like the ending of “The Blob”. Israel is spray-frozen and airlifted to the desolate wastes of the Arctic. Although with global warming, you can’t be sure it won’t thaw and start trouble all over again. Antarctica is probably a better bet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/174 "2014-08-06T15:19:25Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Well, I truthfully don’t even follow the Midle East conflict and I’m not interested in getting bogged down in the byzantine details & accusations either. > > My position is simply that - the Allies had the right to create whatever countries they damn pleased in 1945. If certain peoples feel they got a raw deal - well, they or their leaders should have thought longer and harder about which side they chose to support in that war. Israel wasn’t created in 1945 and it was not created because of WWII. The primary connection to WWII is that a lot of Jewish refugees flocked into Israel during WWII, there was also probably some collective guilt on the part of the western powers for turning their backs on Jewish refugees that ended up getting exterminated in the concentration camps. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/175 "2014-08-06T15:20:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I envision a scenario like the ending of “The Blob”. Israel is spray-frozen and airlifted to the desolate wastes of the Arctic. > > Although with global warming, you can’t be sure it won’t thaw and start trouble all over again. Antarctica is probably a better bet. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/express/wp/2014/08/05/the-story-behind-the-siberian-sinkhole-is-on-todays-cover/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/express/wp/2014/08/05/the-story-behind-the-siberian-sinkhole-is-on-todays-cover/) ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/176 "2014-08-07T01:55:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Israel wasn’t created in 1945 and it was not created because of WWII. The primary connection to WWII is that a lot of Jewish refugees flocked into Israel during WWII, there was also probably some collective guilt on the part of the western powers for turning their backs on Jewish refugees that ended up getting exterminated in the concentration camps. None of that negates my point, which is that it’s difficult to conjure up much enthusiasm for the cause of people who supported the Axis and then claim to have gotten a raw deal in the post-1945 world order. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/177 "2014-08-07T02:01:56Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > LOL, is it really a good idea to essentially reward people just for being hostile? No way that ends well. If the real problem is that people in that area can’t control their anger, let’s instead flood the area with therapists and psychiatrists. Let’s just stop the billions of dollars of aid to both sides. and let things work out how they will. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/178 "2014-08-07T02:08:55Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > Let’s just stop the billions of dollars of aid to both sides. and let things work out how they will. I wouldn’t have the slightest issue with that. As I said before, if you strip away the political nonsense, I sort of picture Israel as being one of those quirky little fringe-European nations like Malta (just trying to get out) and the world could use more countries like that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/179 "2014-08-07T03:50:40Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > None of that negates my point, which is that it’s difficult to conjure up much enthusiasm for the cause of people who supported the Axis and then claim to have gotten a raw deal in the post-1945 world order. > **[Mandate for Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine#World_War_II)** > > The Mandate for Palestine was a League of Nations mandate for British administration of the territories of Palestine and Transjordan – which had been part of the Ottoman Empire for four centuries – following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I. The mandate was assigned to Britain by the San Remo conference in April 1920, after France's concession in the 1918 Clemenceau–Lloyd George Agreement of the previously agreed "international administration" of Palestine under the Sykes–Picot... Other than the grand mufti of Jerusalem (who left Jerusalem in 1937 and ended up living in Nazi territory until the end of the war), I’m not sure there was this support for the Nazis that you are talking about. You make it sound like the Palestinians were on the losing side of WWII. If it turns out that the Palestinians were mostly concerned with their own shit during WWII rather than how to help Hitler achieve world domination, then would you be able to conjure up more enthusiasm for the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657/180 "2014-08-07T04:34:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Mandate for Palestine - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine#World_War_II) > > Other than the grand mufti of Jerusalem (who left Jerusalem in 1937 and ended up living in Nazi territory until the end of the war), I’m not sure there was this support for the Nazis that you are talking about. You make it sound like the Palestinians were on the losing side of WWII. Look, I’m sure I sound like a broken record, and a bit mean but you really, really ought to read up on the subject before making such claims. First of all, saying “Other than the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem” is a bit ridiculous since he was the leader of the Palestinian Arabs. Beyond that the leader of the Arab Liberation Army as well as the leader of the Army of the Holy War that attempted to exterminate the Jews during the 1948 War was also a Nazi Colonel and a number of other officers also fought with the Nazis as well. Beyond that, I’m genuinely puzzled that you’re shocked that so many of Palestinian notables would have supported the Nazis during WWII. Why would you think they wouldn’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-have-to-stay-where-it-is/694657.md?page=10)