# Does Israel need the Golan Heights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116 "2004-07-14T18:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/1 "2004-07-14T18:32:52Z")
In reading about the Six-Day War, I read that one reason Israel seized the Golan Heights from Syria was because the Syrians would use the Heights to shell _kibbutzim_ in Israel. In the recent past, I read that Israel was ready to negotiate handing back the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace/stability/nonviolence. Does Israel still need the Golan Heights? If not, what measures has it taken to protect _kibbutzim_ from potentially being shelled again by Syrians or other anti-Israel belligerents, especially seeing how anti-Israel belligerents are hard to control? (I could see the Hizbullah using the Heights. If Syria gives them free reign in southern Lebanon, why not in Syria?) I’d prefer not to hear anything political, polemical, or whatnot. Just the issues above. WRS ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/2 "2004-07-14T19:06:47Z")
For the record, here’s a topographical map of Israel and the surrounding area: [http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Topography.asp](http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Topography.asp) The Golan Heights isn’t labeled individually on there, but it’s the southernwestern end of the anti-Lebanon mountains. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/3 "2004-07-14T19:53:13Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > In the recent past, I read that Israel was ready to negotiate handing back the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace/stability/nonviolence. > … > I’d prefer not to hear anything political, polemical, or whatnot. Just the issues above. Could we have cite for the claim that “In the recent past … Israel was ready to negotiate handing back the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace/stability/nonviolence”. I’ve heard that one person urged Sharon to approach Syria to _come to an agreement_ about GH, something Sharon flatly rejected. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/4 "2004-07-14T19:55:31Z")
Re: the Golan Heights As long as there is **any** chance of hostilities along the Israel-Syria border, Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights is a strategic **must** (it isn’t only the kibbutzim that are in artillary range - Tiberias and Safed, at the very least, are too!) OTOH, the Syrian border has been **completely** quiet since 1973. Even during the 1982-2000 Israeli presence in South Lebanon. Not one bullet has been shot across that border (incidentally meaning that Syria is fully capable of controlling Hizballah when they want - but you asked not to go into that…) So, I think that the Golan Heights are, basicly, a two-way negotiation asset - we need it as long as there is no agreement. With a reasonable agreement, it should no longer be necessary, and could be returned to Syria as part of the quid pro quo of said negotiations. BTW, I am using the word _“returned”_ advisedly here. Unlike the West Bank, I don’t think you will find that many Israelis who will argue the the Golan “belongs” to us - but far **more** Israelis will agree that we aren’t getting off of it for anything less than a **complete and full settlement** with Syria. IOW - Unilateral Partition (like, hopefully, in Gaza) just ain’t gonna happen on this end… and rightly so! Dani ---
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/5 "2004-07-14T19:56:43Z")
Well, giving Hizbollah a free reign in Lebanon is quite a different thing from giving them a free reign in Syria, as I’m sure you can understand. Doing the latter would probably get Syria in all kinds of trouble very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/6 "2004-07-14T20:00:17Z")
> [@Me](#): > > As long as there is **any** chance of hostilities along the Israel-Syria border, Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights is a strategic **must** (it isn’t only the kibbutzim that are in artillary range - Tiberias and Safed, at the very least, are too!) I forgot to mention that the vista from the Golan over northern Israel is amazingly breathtaking! And rest assured that no-one here misses the military significance of that… Dani ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/7 "2004-07-14T20:11:24Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > Unlike the West Bank, I don’t think you will find that many Israelis who will argue the the Golan “belongs” to us - but far **more** Israelis will agree that we aren’t getting off of it for anything less than a **complete and full settlement** with Syria. IOW - Unilateral Partition (like, hopefully, in Gaza) just ain’t gonna happen on this end… and rightly so! Absent such a settlement (and IIRC, Syria’s never offered one), that’s the one Israeli occupied territory from the 1967 war for which continued occupation is justified, IMHO. No way Israel can let go of that high ground for anything less than a signed peace treaty, complete with full diplomatic recognition. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/8 "2004-07-14T20:19:50Z")
There are certain portions of it which Israel needs for the sake early-warning radar systems. Other parts Israel has expressed a willingness to negotiate about, but Syria has refused to even enter into negotiations unless the entire Golan Heights was returned first. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/9 "2004-07-14T21:19:41Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > OTOH, the Syrian border has been **completely** quiet since 1973. Even during the 1982-2000 Israeli presence in South Lebanon. Not one bullet has been shot across that border … not from the Syrian side of the border at least… ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/10 "2004-07-14T23:48:21Z")
While we’re on the subject of the Golan Heights, let’s not forget the refugee situation which is likely to play a part in any future agreement: > [@](#): > > Except for some Druze villagers who stayed behind, most of the Syrian population of the Golan Heights fled in 1967. Estimates of their original numbers vary. While Israel says that about 70,000 left, Syria puts the original number at 153,000 and asserts that the number has grown to almost 500,000, 34 years later. > > After the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, Israel agreed to return a slice of territory along the eastern edge of the Golan Heights, extending to Kuneitra, the one-time capital of Golan Province, in return for the repatriation of Israeli POWs. Before leaving, however, the Israelis leveled the city with bulldozers and dynamite. Although its 53,000 displaced residents had been expected to return, the late President Assad said that the city was uninhabitable, and it remained empty. [http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/mideast/syria.htm](http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/mideast/syria.htm) So, there are several hundre thousand refugees, most of them who are now living in refugee camps in Syria. Israel has established more than 30 settlements in the area, housing about 15 000 - 20 000 people. ([cite 1](http://www.fmep.org/database/golan.html), [cite 2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights)) About the legal situation: > [@](#): > > The Heights were controlled by the Israeli army from 1967 until 1981 when the Knesset annexed the land with The Golan Heights Law. This annexation has not been internationally recognized, and the Golan is generally considered occupied territory. The 1981 law awarded Israeli citizenship to the Syrian citizens who remained in the area after the 1967 war. The final status of the Golan Heights is pending to be determined as a part of a peace agreement between Israel and Syria. > > A United Nations force - UNDOF (Disengagement Observer Force) was established in 1974 to supervise the implementation of the agreement and maintain the ceasefire with an area of separation. The Syrian and Israeli governments are still contesting the ownership of the Heights but have not used overt military force since 1974. The great strategic value of the Heights both militarily and as a source of water [accounts for about 30%-35% of Israels water supply, me noet] means that a deal is uncertain. > **[Golan Heights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights)** > > The Golan Heights (Arabic: هَضْبَةُ الْجَوْلَانِ‎, romanized: Haḍbatu l-Jawlān or مُرْتَفَعَاتُ الْجَوْلَانِ‎, Murtafaʻātu l-Jawlān, Hebrew: רמת הגולן‎, romanized: Ramat HaGolan), or simply the Golan, is a region in the Levant spanning about 1,800 square kilometres (690 sq mi). The region defined as the Golan Heights differs between disciplines: as a geological and biogeographical region, the Golan Heights refers to a basaltic plateau bordered by the Yarmouk River in the south, the Sea of Ga... After Israel annexed the Golan Heights in 1981, the UN Security Council adopted resolution 497 “stating that Israel’s annexation is null and void and against International Law”. In 1982 “The General Assembly Plenary Session adopts resolution 49, revisiting UNSCR 497 (1981) and demands Israel withdraw from all occupied Syrian lands. The US votes against the resolution.” And finally, a very interesting article by peace-loving SEARCH: > [@](#): > > The Israeli daily, Yediot Aharanot, in its Passover supplement of April 1997, published for the first time notes of a 1976 conversation between **Moshe Dayan, Israel’s Defense Minister in 1967** , and Rami Tal, now a senior editor at Yediot Aharanot. On May 2, 1997, the Boston Globe ran a story headlined, “Israel Took Golan Out of Greed, Dayan Says: Ex-Defense Chief Describes Tactics of a Land Grab.” The New York Times (May 11, 1997) was more neutral: “General’s Words Shed a New Light on the Golan.” > > Dayan told Tal that Israeli farmers urged the Labor government to seize the Golan in 1967 primarily because they sought Golan farm land, not because of Syrian shells: “They did not even try to hide their lust for that soil. That is what guided them.” Dayan added that “eighty percent of the incidents” on the Syrian border resulted from Israeli provocations: “We would send tractors to plow in an area of little use, in a demilitarized zone . . . to advance until the Syrians would get aggravated and start shooting.” Israel responded with artillery and air power. Why? Israel was unhappy with the cease-fire lines and needed excuses to seize additional farm land. > … > **Matatyahu Peled, a former Israeli general** , wrote that “Over 50% of the border incidents [with Syria] before the Six Day War were the result of our [Israel’s] security policy of maximum settlement in the demilitarized areas.” (Ma’ariv, April 7, 1972). [http://www.searchforjustice.org/faqs/golan.html](http://www.searchforjustice.org/faqs/golan.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/11 "2004-07-15T02:11:24Z")
Does **Syria** need the Golan Heights? I mean, it seems they want it back purely out of a sense of national pride – it was part of their territory, and it was taken from them in war, and within living memory. Which is understandable, but is there any other reason they’re interested in it? For instance, who actually lived there before 1973? Are there Syrian families that want to return to their old homes in the Golan? And who lives there now? Are there Israeli settlers who would have to leave if the Golan changed hands again? And, apart from being a place to live, and a strategic position from which to shell Galilee, is there any reason the Golan is valuable? Natural resources, good farmland, anything like that? ---
**Author:** ![INSANE1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@INSANE1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/INSANE1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/12 "2004-07-15T03:45:12Z")
Are the Golan Heights a source of water for Israel? ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/13 "2004-07-15T03:52:13Z")
They need it because they lost the war, and when you lose the war, you get to take back any territory you lost to your enemies. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/14 "2004-07-15T03:57:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does **Syria** need the Golan Heights? I mean, it seems they want it back purely out of a sense of national pride – it was part of their territory, and it was taken from them in war, and within living memory. Which is understandable, but is there any other reason they’re interested in it? For instance, who actually lived there before 1973? Are there Syrian families that want to return to their old homes in the Golan? And who lives there now? Are there Israeli settlers who would have to leave if the Golan changed hands again? And, apart from being a place to live, and a strategic position from which to shell Galilee, is there any reason the Golan is valuable? Natural resources, good farmland, anything like that? > [@INSANE1](#): > > Are the Golan Heights a source of water for Israel? I _knew_ it, nobody reads my posts ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/15 "2004-07-15T04:19:19Z")
> [@Alien](#): > > I _knew_ it, nobody reads my posts ☹ My apologies, **Alien.** I only read about 2/3 of the thread before posting. Seemed like a good idea at the time. ---
**Author:** ![BoringDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BoringDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoringDad)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/16 "2004-07-15T04:51:26Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > As long as there is **any** chance of hostilities along the Israel-Syria border, Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights is a strategic **must** (it isn’t only the kibbutzim that are in artillary range - Tiberias and Safed, at the very least, are too!) Face it, the Golan Heights are no longer a strategic defense. The distance is just too small. The only possible strategic advantage for Syria if they held the Golan Heights would be to lob artillery pot shots into Israel, and if they wanted to do that now, they could do it with missiles. The extra 40 miles of ground in an actual war would mean little. However, I fail to see why Israel should be forced to turn over land that they won in a war. In the real world, victory in battle is generally the way borders are drawn. I am also astounded that the refugees from Golan are still living in refugee tent cities? What the? Why can’t they move out into real cities, get jobs, be normal Syrians? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/17 "2004-07-15T05:19:46Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > Face it, the Golan Heights are no longer a strategic defense. The distance is just too small. The only possible strategic advantage for Syria if they held the Golan Heights would be to lob artillery pot shots into Israel, and if they wanted to do that now, they could do it with missiles. The extra 40 miles of ground in an actual war would mean little. I respectfully disagree. In case of a “real” war, you have to move tanks and people, and you have to take over an area _physically_. The Golan’s western border is half-way up a HUGE escrapment, scaling that in the six-day war was possible only because of the condition the Syrian army was in… I would **not** want to have to do that again (not that **I** did the first time… I was 3 Y.O. at the time). > [@](#): > > However, I fail to see why Israel should be forced to turn over land that they won in a war. In the real world, victory in battle is generally the way borders are drawn. Yup. Unless, of course, Israel is the victor… Anyone care to wager what would happen if Israel **lost** any land in a war? The good Arabs would return it forthwith…! Right? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I am also astounded that the refugees from Golan are still living in refugee tent cities? What the? Why can’t they move out into real cities, get jobs, be normal Syrians? SOP for treatment of citizens by far too many Arab regimes…\* ☹ I’m quite certain the 1967 refugees inside Syria (Syrian citizens inside Syria, **not** displaced persons!) are not allowed to leave these camps and start a new life, lest their plight be lost on the video cameras and a PR angle be lost to the regime. Dani - Note: Not a slur on Arabs. Not all Arab regimes behave this way; many other non-Arab dictatorships **do**. Basicly just pointing out that too many Arabs - and Arab countries - are run roughshod over by authoritarian dictatorships ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/18 "2004-07-15T05:19:47Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > I am also astounded that the refugees from Golan are still living in refugee tent cities? What the? Why can’t they move out into real cities, get jobs, be normal Syrians? First of all, I doubt it’s true. Second, if they left the camps, they’s stop being victims, and being a victim is the best thing in the world: everybody loves you, you can never do anything wrong and you’re not responsible for your own actions. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/19 "2004-07-15T06:08:35Z")
I would just like to mention a preconceived notion that I have from travels in Israel and the Golan. The fight for the Golan in 1967 and 1973 cost Israel a lot of tanks and boys. IIRC, they had their line broken a few times. Unlike the Sinai, which was taken relatively easily (and was a huge amount of hard-to-defend territory), the Golan (and East Jerusalem) were paid for in blood. This may cause a psychological (not a legal) resistance to just hand that land over in return for a piece of paper backed by a sometimes less-than-rational dictator (although Bashir seems to be better than his father). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116/20 "2004-07-15T06:31:47Z")
> [@BoringDad](#): > > However, I fail to see why Israel should be forced to turn over land that they won in a war. In the real world, victory in battle is generally the way borders are drawn. Up until 1945, and for some time after, that principle was simply accepted as normal and legitimate – but the modern attitude is more dubious. In 1990, Hussein took Kuwait as a prize of war, but few non-Iraqis defended this as “legitimate.” (A few months ago, in a couple of threads on the CPA occupation of Iraq, we had discussions of whether the occupation was “legitimate,” and whether “right of conquest” is still a relevant principle in the modern world, morally or legally.) Now, you could make a case that Israel has a better moral claim to territory, such as the Golan (or even the West Bank), which it acquired in a war where it was clearly defending itself from aggression. But remember, Israel also took the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt under the same circumstances, and even so, the international community was always dubious about Israel’s “right” to rule the Sinai, and in the end Israel was willing to hand it back for the sake of peace (and because they had no practical use for it, and the Sinai was not historically Israeli territory by any conceivable standards). So perhaps we can understand the Syrians’ resentment, if Israel won’t hand the Golan back to them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-need-the-golan-heights/255116.md?page=2)