# Does Israel really need US support? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673 "2014-07-21T16:40:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/21 "2014-07-22T02:40:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > a few years ago, a Civil Union bill passed, which lets people marry civilly if neither of them are a member of any religious community. Indeed? May a Jew claim to be not a member of a religious community and show up at a Seder, as I claim to be a Republican in a primary election in an effort to torpedo a popular Republican candidate and vote Democratic in the general election? The observant Jews were obviously very serious about religious marriage. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/22 "2014-07-22T03:23:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s only equivalent of Israeli Arabs are denied the same rights as Israeli Jews to an extent at least equivalent to Jim Crow in the US. Palestinians, on the other hand, are not only not Israeli citizens, they don’t want to be, so do not have the same rights. It would be like saying that the US practices apartheid towards Puerto Ricans because they don’t have the right to vote. Puerto Ricans are full US citizens. Are Palestinians in the occupied territories full Israeli citizens? As full US citizens, Puerto Ricans are entitled to settle anywhere in the US, and if they settle in a state, they get the same rights as all residents of that state (including the right to vote in that state’s elections). Is that true of Palestinians in the occupied territories? Are they allowed to settle anywhere in Israel and assume full rights of Israeli citizenship? As US citizens, Puerto Ricans are entitled to a basic set of rights under the US Constitution that all US citizens are entitled to. Are Palestinians in the occupied territories entitled to the some similar basic set of rights as all Israelis under Israeli law? Even though there is no constitutional obligation to do so, the US government has set up a local, elected government in Puerto Rico, and all US citizens resident in Puerto Rico are entitled to vote in those elections. Is that true of all Palestinians in the occupied territories? Both major parties in the US hold Presidential primaries in Puerto Rico, and as such, Puerto Rico citizens have some say in who will eventually be US President. Are Palestinians in the occupied territories allowed to participate in and be members of Israeli parties? Puerto Rico has a non-voting Congressional delegation. Do Palestianians in the occupied territory get to elect non-voting members to the Israeli parliament? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/23 "2014-07-22T03:36:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Indeed? > May a Jew claim to be not a member of a religious community and show up at a Seder, as I claim to be a Republican in a primary election in an effort to torpedo a popular Republican candidate and vote Democratic in the general election? The observant Jews were obviously very serious about religious marriage. I don’t know about showing up at a Seder, although I suppose, so long as the other people at the Seder don’t object, but yes, a Jew can unregister as a Jew (or a Muslim as a Muslim or a Christian as a Christian). There was a case before the court, after the late author/critic Yoran Kanuik had sued the Interior Ministry to change his registration from “Jewish” to “Without Religion”. The judge writing the decision stated "“Freedom from religion is a freedom derived from the right to human dignity, which is protected by the Basic Law on Human Dignity and Freedom. . .”, and Kanuik’s religious affiliation was changed to without religion. Since then, other people have done it. So, yes, it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/24 "2014-07-22T06:37:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > \ > > I’m tired of people acting like Israel is America Lite. It’s not as crazy-oppressive as Saudi Arabia, but then again few countries are that awful. > > \ Probably only Taliban-occupied Afghanistan is as oppressive as the worst parts of Saudi, or the worst parts of Kuwait, Oman and the Emirates. There are many liberal people in the region who like to talk about politics (Twitter is hugely popular in Saudi), mingle with the opposite sex, drink wine, and do other ‘Haraam’ things. It is done out of sight behind firmly closed doors, but on a regular basis. Saudi is currently home to about 8 million immigrants, some of whom will not want to give up all of their previous recreational pursuits. As to the many wealthy, western-educated, Saudi princes and princesses there, well… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/25 "2014-07-22T08:34:05Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Puerto Ricans are full US citizens. Are Palestinians in the occupied territories full Israeli citizens? When was the last time Puerto Rico launched a missile attack against US soil? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/26 "2014-07-22T09:14:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When was the last time Puerto Rico launched a missile attack against US soil? When was the last time you actually tried to respond to a post in a coherent manner? **adaher** tried to make a bizarre and ignorant comparison with US treatment of Puerto Ricans, and I refuted that. I’m not going to play your little dishonest game. But, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you’d also know that Puerto Rican nationalists have actually committed terrorist attacks in the US in the past. That, of course, is irrelevant to the point that residents of Puerto Rico are not treated the way residents of the Palestinian territories are, and it is dishonest to try to equate them in any fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/27 "2014-07-22T09:33:38Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > But, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you’d also know that Puerto Rican nationalists have actually committed terrorist attacks in the US in the past. And did the government of Puerto Rico respond by calling them heroes and urging them to continue their attacks? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/28 "2014-07-22T09:40:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And did the government of Puerto Rico respond by calling them heroes and urging them to continue their attacks? Does the US government treat Puerto Rican residents the same as the Israeli government treats Palestinians in the occupied territories? Yes or no? Was **adaher** incorrect when he claimed “It would be like saying that the US practices apartheid towards Puerto Ricans because they don’t have the right to vote.”? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/29 "2014-07-22T10:09:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Israel wins short, sharp conflicts. I just don’t see how it could hold up under, say, a 10-year war against multiple, large, well-equipped foes, especially if the Saudis join an anti-Israel coalition. It wouldn’t go to ten years before someplace, somewhere in those foe countries, [gets glassed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel#Doctrine). Previous coalitions against Israel were just basically _lucky_ they got their asses handed to them repeatedly in the conventional wars of the 60s-70s. A protracted engagement would be another story. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/30 "2014-07-22T13:21:33Z")
Israel fought a war lasting over one year when they didn’t have any material advantages over the Arabs. The Arabs have already tried the “long war of attrition” strategy on Israel, with long periods of undeclared war where they tried to bleed the little country to death and failed. Israel can fight for as long as it needs to within or just outside its own borders. The real issue is whether Israel can fight over large areas. Israel trying to march to Baghdad or Tehran is a lot like the Germans or Napoleon trying to march to Moscow. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/31 "2014-07-22T14:59:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Which is why non-Jews can marry Jews there, [right](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/israel-civil-marriage-ban_n_3429764.html)? > > I’m tired of people acting like Israel is America Lite. It’s not as crazy-oppressive as Saudi Arabia, but then again few countries are that awful. > > Also, Israel isn’t the lone shining light in the midst of desert darkness. Jordan and Qatar are prosperous, non-radical/fundamentalist, stable countries who are key allies of the USA. The largest military base in the Middle East is in Qatar. We have multiple partners in that region. Not just Israel. > > I wouldn’t mind supporting Israel for humanitarian aide purposes, as we do with developing countries throughout the world. I also wouldn’t mind supporting Israel if I felt doing so would increase peace and stability in the world. But I don’t see evidence of either of these things. But maybe I could be persuaded to feel differently if I heard arguments that appeal to something besides emotions. As Captain Amazing has pointed out, this situation is caused by the fact that Israel has inherited a bizzare system (from the Ottoman Turks, of all people) in which there is no civil marriage. It is not an example of “religious fundamentalism” - on the part of the government, but on the part of _all_ of the religious communities there. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/32 "2014-07-22T16:23:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As Captain Amazing has pointed out, this situation is caused by the fact that Israel has inherited a bizzare system (from the Ottoman Turks, of all people) in which there is no civil marriage. It is not an example of “religious fundamentalism” - on the part of the government, but on the part of _all_ of the religious communities there. Maybe I’m just dense, but I can’t see how the above jibes with a “liberal, democratically elected government”. A conservative one that is beholden to archaic religious strictures, yes. But not a society I’ve been repeatedly told is all about freedom and progressiveness and equality. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/33 "2014-07-22T16:44:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Maybe I’m just dense, but I can’t see how the above jibes with a “liberal, democratically elected government”. A conservative one that is beholden to archaic religious strictures, yes. But not a society I’ve been repeatedly told is all about freedom and progressiveness and equality. Well, if you have been told Israel is “… all about freedom and progressiveness and equality” you have been sold a bill of goods. Israel is a liberal democracy, but like all liberal democracies I know of, it has internal issues. In this case, its issues are with the highly religious minorities (Jew, Christian and Muslim alike) - who hate each other like poision most of the time, but who are united as one on this particular issue - that there be no change to Israel’s bizzare, archaic marriage laws that give all the power (on this topic) to said highly religious minorities. The secular majority deals with this by ‘work-arounds’ - huge gaping loopholes that, in effect, allow Israelis to have a purely secular marriage if they want to. The ultra-religious cannot get these loopholes closed, because to do that would require changing the law, and any change would allow for the possibility of introducing secular marriages. The main “work-around” is to vacation on Cyprus and get married there. Cyprus is very easy for Israelis to get to, and has made a mini industry of hosting Israeli marriages. The Israeli state makes it easy, as marriages performed outside of Israel are considered fully valid in Israel. If Israelis don’t want to travel, they use Paraguay, which allows marriages at the consulate in Tel Aviv. This is just one of the many oddities imposed by the fact that, for whatever reason, Israel has chosen to support the pre-Israeli religious establishment. Perhaps less known, but more significant, is the fact that several holy sites are under the jurisdiction of Christian and Muslim authorities - for example, the Dome of the Rock is, to this day, controlled by a Muslim authority (a “Waqf”). It is actually ‘administered’ out of Jordan, not Israel. It was the mere act of Ariel Sharon _visiting_ the Temple Mount area that set off the “Al-Aqsa Intifada”. In Israel, the religious authorities are not to be trifled with - even by the government. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/34 "2014-07-22T16:49:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Hamas dropped one of those rockets on a school. > Thank God is was empty. Israel has besieged Gaza for years, controlling its access to Egypt and the Mediterranean as well as its access to Israel. But it’s wrong of Hamas to fight back against this, I guess. I wonder what would happen if some hostile power squeezed two million Americans into an area 1/14 the size of Delaware, and wouldn’t let anybody in or out. Bet that if we could construct missiles and fire them at the hostile power, we damned sure would, and we wouldn’t give a shit if one of them landed on a school. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/35 "2014-07-22T17:00:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Israel has besieged Gaza for years, controlling its access to Egypt and the Mediterranean as well as its access to Israel. But it’s wrong of Hamas to fight back against this, I guess. > > I wonder what would happen if some hostile power squeezed two million Americans into an area 1/14 the size of Delaware, and wouldn’t let anybody in or out. Bet that if we could construct missiles and fire them at the hostile power, we damned sure would, and we wouldn’t give a shit if one of them landed on a school. It isn’t Hamas’ intention to fight for the liberty of Gazans - they are religious fanatics, whose express aim is to use the Gazans’ plight as a springboard for jihad. Israel has no ability to “control access to Egypt”. That’s on the Egyptians. > [@](#): > > Egypt’s argument is that it cannot open Rafah crossing unless the Palestinian Authority headed by Mahmoud Abbas controls the crossing and international monitors are present. Egypt Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said Hamas wants the border opened because it would represent Egyptian recognition of the group’s control of Gaza. “Of course this is something we cannot do,” he said, “because it would undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority and consecrate the split between Gaza and the West Bank.” > **[Blockade of the Gaza Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Debate)** > > Golan Heights (1967–present) > The restrictions on movement and goods in Gaza imposed by Israel date to the early 1990s. After Hamas took over in 2007, Israel significantly intensified existing movement restrictions and imposed a complete blockade on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip. In the same year, Egypt closed the Rafah crossing point. The blockade's current stated aim is to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza; previously stated motivations have included ... The Israelis would like nothing better than to have Egypt take over Gaza, and have all Gazans who want to join their fellows in Egypt. Egypt is determined to prevent that, ghaving its own problems with Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood: > [@](#): > > According to Sharif Elmusa, Associate Professor of Political Science at the American University in Cairo, Israel wants Gaza to fade into Egypt. Egyptian authorities are determined to avoid opening the Rafah crossing without ending the Israeli siege, which would ultimately serve Israel’s goal of displacing the Gaza problem onto Egypt. Secondly it is Cairo’s concern that under Hamas rule violence can spill into Sinai and threaten tourism, leaving Egypt vulnerable to US and Israeli accusations of ineffectively fighting terrorism. Yet even Egypt’s acts are blamed on Israel. Funny that. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/36 "2014-07-22T17:02:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I wonder what would happen if some hostile power squeezed two million Americans into an area 1/14 the size of Delaware, and wouldn’t let anybody in or out. Bet that if we could construct missiles and fire them at the hostile power, we damned sure would, and we wouldn’t give a shit if one of them landed on a school. The missiles are from Iran, but I digress. Surely you exaggerate to make your point about giving a shit if one of them lands on a school full of kids. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/37 "2014-07-22T17:23:49Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Does the US government treat Puerto Rican residents the same as the Israeli government treats Palestinians in the occupied territories? Yes or no? Was **adaher** incorrect when he claimed “It would be like saying that the US practices apartheid towards Puerto Ricans because they don’t have the right to vote.”? Yes or no? Hardly. For one thing, Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and can move to the mainland and vote for Congresscritters if they desire. For another, there is no U.S. policy of constructing a network of Anglo-only settlements in Puerto Rico, connected by a network of Anglo-only roads, and requiring Puerto Ricans to pass through checkpoints when they cross these arteries within Puerto Rico. Not to mention, if a majority of the citizens of Puerto Rico supported independence, we’d almost surely let them have it, but [that isn’t the case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2012). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/38 "2014-07-22T17:27:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The missiles are from Iran, but I digress. > Surely you exaggerate to make your point about giving a shit if one of them lands on a school full of kids. I’m sorry, I thought you said Hamas, not Iran. And as far as caring about kids from places in the world that we don’t like, we’ve got a perfectly good example going on right now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/39 "2014-07-22T17:41:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It isn’t Hamas’ intention to fight for the liberty of Gazans - they are religious fanatics, whose express aim is to use the Gazans’ plight as a springboard for jihad. Which makes Israel’s treatment of Gaza all the more immoral. > [@](#): > > Israel has no ability to “control access to Egypt”. That’s on the Egyptians. > > [Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Debate) > > The Israelis would like nothing better than to have Egypt take over Gaza, and have all Gazans who want to join their fellows in Egypt. Egypt is determined to prevent that, ghaving its own problems with Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood: > > Yet even Egypt’s acts are blamed on Israel. Funny that. Especially when the terms are set by an Egypt-Israel agreement, and Israel continues to maintain a naval blockade of Gaza’s sea access. (See your own link.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673/40 "2014-07-22T17:54:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m sorry, I thought you said Hamas, not Iran. > > And as far as caring about kids from places in the world that we don’t like, we’ve got a perfectly good example going on right now. Hamas purportedly obtained the missiles from Iran. Your second point is quite valid, but if someone moved me into some place like Gaza or 1/14 of Delaware, I wouldn’t want to kill some of their children, my morals aside, I would think that it would really, really piss them off at me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-israel-really-need-us-support/693673.md?page=3)