# Does it feel like there has been some sort of phase shift in the opinion on vaccines recently? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 31, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437 "2015-01-31T16:46:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/61 "2015-02-03T18:10:27Z")
> [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](#): > > Idle wondering that just occurred to me - do anti-vax parents who won’t vaccinate their children vaccinate their pets for rabies and such? In almost every state it’s mandatory: [http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws](http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws) ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/62 "2015-02-03T20:42:41Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > One thing I wonder about: what percentage of the unvaccinated kids in California are Mexican immigrants, be they legal or illegal. I live in California in a city that is predominantly a mix of Hispanics and white people. I looked up the vaccination rates in the public schools. It’s anecdotal, of course, but the schools with a higher percentage of Hispanics tended to have higher vaccination rates (more than 95%). The schools with the lowest percentage of Hispanics were also the ones that were flagged with the lowest vaccination rates (below 90%). The big confounding factor here is, of course, socioeconomic class; the lowest vaccination rates tended largely to be in the richer school districts, which are predominantly white, and the poorer school districts (with high vaccination rates) in general have a lot of Hispanic students. (It was kind of amazing to look at; it was like a map of the rich vs. poor areas of my city.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/63 "2015-02-03T20:58:29Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Has anyone mentioned the [Christie waffle](http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/chris-christie-vaccines/index.html) on vaccinations just this past week? > > Or the Rand Paul flat out endorsement of anti-vaxxers as of this morning? [“Vaccinations cause Profound Mental Disorders”](http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/rand-paul-vaccine-effects/index.html) - CNN Rand Paul must have gotten a heapen helpin of shots when he was young, then… and is speaking from personal observations:p This does explain a lot… ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_Hey\_Paula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_Hey_Paula)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/64 "2015-02-03T21:00:30Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > In almost every state it’s mandatory: > > [http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws](http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws) Interesting. I only have cats, who rarely go out, and when they do, it’s a few feet outside the door while I’m supervising. My vet always suggests that they be kept up to date on their rabies shots, on the rare chance they are outside while I’m watering the plants, or they sneak outside, just at the exact moment a rabid bat decides to enter our yard, and they decide to try to hunt it. The vet has never suggested it’s mandatory, but I do keep my cats up to date on all their recommended shots. (And I get a flu shot every year now, and I never got an MMR shot because I got those diseases, or at least measles and mumps, plus chicken pox, in elementary school - man I’m old! :o ) ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/65 "2015-02-03T21:43:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > What is shocking to me honestly is how few of the cases are in those who have been vaccinated. > > Of the 59 Disneyland cases only six were documented to have occurred in those who had received at east one dose of the vaccine. That’s pretty amazing. > > The simple reality is that no vaccine is 100% perfect, this one reputably lowers the risk of catching measles after exposure down to 5%. Usually many many more people who are exposed to that index case are vaccinated then not. If the unvaccinated rate is as high as 5% then you will usually end up with half of cases still occurring in the vaccinated … just so many more of them exposed. It’s also got to do with the opportunity the virus has to mutate. When it gets a foothold in an unvaccinated subset that is fairly substantial, it can mutate just enough to sneak past the antibodies a vaccinated person has-- sometimes just briefly though. This is why vaccinated people usually get an attenuated version of the illness. I got attenuated pertussis, and it was horrible enough, I don’t even want to know what real pertussis is like. It only lasted for about three days, with the irresistible cough for about a day, but I was miserable. > [@jz78817](#): > > no, because they’ll find something else to blame. it couldn’t have been their bad decision which killed their child. _It’s always someone else’s fault._ I read an essay by a mother who was sure her premature newborn had been killed by his hepB vaccine, in spite of the fact that he was ill with something else already, for which he had been given an antibiotic which he had an allergic reaction to, and was recovering, slowly, but before he had completely recovered was accidentally given the same antibiotic again, and then died-- several days after the vaccine. > [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I’m old enough to remember kids who had lost their hearing as a side effect of measles. I had a friend at Gallaudet who lost her hearing to chicken pox. > [@astorian](#): > > It’s not a coincidence that there are more rabid anti-vaxxers in Marin County than in Broward County. The worst I knew had a master’s degree, but didn’t understand the germ theory. Her daughter wasn’t allowed to have dairy products, because she got an ear “infection” after eating yogurt for the first time; this mother was also into homeopathy. He kid was an emotional mess, because every time she behaved badly in school, her mother removed another food from her kid’s diet, in the belief that all her behavior was diet-based. She never set any limits for her kid, or had any expectations for her-- other than that she would somehow magically be perfect once her diet was balanced. There was so little the kid was allowed to eat, she was in tears at snack time a lot, when she had her rice crackers and almond milk from home every single day, while the other kids got a variety of things, with occasional treats on birthdays and holidays. > [@DSeid](#): > > Let us be clear about this - to the best of my knowledge only the Christian Scientists and the Amish actually are against vaccines Not all Amish. It depends on the community. There’s actually a diversity of beliefs, believe it or not. The Amish aren’t a single thing. But some communities fully immunize their children. They don’t get adult boosters, because they don’t get physicals, but the ones who interact with the general public a lot, doing carpentry, or baking, or something, often even get flu shots. These are usually people who understand that the diseases are more likely to make you disabled than dead, and a disabled person has trouble fulfilling the Amish work ethic, and needs accommodations that sometimes clash with the general lifestyle. If someone is hard of hearing, they can’t charge hearing-aid batteries on the electricity-free farm, unless there’s a centrally-located generator for just such things (or sometimes for refrigerators, if they make food to sell to the public). Anyway, better not to get the disease that makes you need hearing-aids in the first place. I ran into an Amish family once, at the clinic when I was getting my son some of his shots. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/66 "2015-02-03T21:45:11Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Has anyone mentioned the [Christie waffle](http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/chris-christie-vaccines/index.html) on vaccinations just this past week? > > Or the Rand Paul flat out endorsement of anti-vaxxers as of this morning? [“Vaccinations cause Profound Mental Disorders”](http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/rand-paul-vaccine-effects/index.html) - CNN Welcome to 2016s talking point – big gubmint can’t tell me what’s best for my kid! ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/67 "2015-02-03T22:17:42Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > In almost every state it’s mandatory: > > [http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws](http://www.dogs4dogs.com/rabies-laws) A slight detour for cat health… Cats have fewer states that require rabies vaccination although it’s still common. There’s a reason. The rabies vaccine used to be one of the shots associated with injection site sarcoma among other complications (ISTR there’s been an improvement since I had to make the decision last). Colloquially the shot could give them cancer. Having a strictly indoor cat prompts making a real risk to benefit decision regarding some vaccinations (if the law allows.) A responsible vet **should** guide the discussion. /detour ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/68 "2015-02-03T22:18:50Z")
Just found an interesting write-up from the CDC. [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm) Oregon and Vermont are among the worst states, when it comes to MMR vaccinations. That’s right, the states with the most people demanding exemptions from MMR vaccines are the homes of Portlandia and Bernie Sanders. By contrast, practically nobody in Mississippi seeks such exemptions. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/69 "2015-02-03T23:50:45Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I read an essay by a mother who was sure her premature newborn had been killed by his hepB vaccine, in spite of the fact that he was ill with something else already, for which he had been given an antibiotic which he had an allergic reaction to, and was recovering, slowly, but before he had completely recovered was accidentally given the same antibiotic again, and then died-- several days after the vaccine. Was that Baby Ian? If so, the parents did not allow an autopsy to determine cause of death, and he had aspirated meconium during the birth process. It’s a sad case of parents being so grief-stricken (rightfully so) that they aren’t capable of rational consideration of the situation. > [@astorian](#): > > Just found an interesting write-up from the CDC. > > [Vaccination Coverage Among Children in Kindergarten — United States, 2013–14 School Year](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm) > > Oregon and Vermont are among the worst states, when it comes to MMR vaccinations. That’s right, the states with the most people demanding exemptions from MMR vaccines are the homes of Portlandia and Bernie Sanders. > > By contrast, practically nobody in Mississippi seeks such exemptions. Mississippi and West Virginia only allow medical exemptions. No non-medical exemptions for public school children are available. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/70 "2015-02-03T23:58:37Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > Welcome to 2016s talking point – big gubmint can’t tell me what’s best for my kid! Its my Og Gibbon Right to be an Infectious American!!! **“Hey! Measles-Dumbass! You just killed 30 babies and caused more than 50 adults to be rendered sterile for life. Whatcha Gonna Do Next…?” “Ima Gonna Go Ta Disneyland!!!”** ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/71 "2015-02-04T00:54:23Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Do I have a “cite” or stats showing the demographics of anti-vaxxers? No, I do not. I do. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/26/the-biggest-myth-about-vaccine-deniers-that-theyre-all-a-bunch-of-hippie-liberals/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/26/the-biggest-myth-about-vaccine-deniers-that-theyre-all-a-bunch-of-hippie-liberals/) It turns out that political conservatism tends to make one more pro-vaccine, while libertarianism makes you more anti-vax. Which might explain why Rand Paul and Chris Christie irresponsibly lent public support to those siding with disease. [Cite1](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/rand-paul-vaccines-114845.htmlhttp://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/rand-paul-vaccines-114845.html). [Cite2](http://time.com/3692080/christie-vaccines-antivax/). h/t [Phil Plait aka Bad Astronomer](http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2015/02/03/disneyland_measles_anti_vax_beliefs_are_just_one_part_of_all_this.html). But overall, they tend to wash each other out. There’s more evidence. Over at WAPO they plotted a curve on vaccine stances vs. ideology: it was pretty flat: if anything conservatives were (slightly) more likely downplay the benefits of child vaccination. That’s from a 2014 paper by Dan M. Kahan on risk perceptions. But I wouldn’t make too much of documented measles outbreak clusters in conservative Orange County, California, conservative Tarrant, Texas, conservative Eastern Nebraska or red zone Cumberland county, PA. Hippy dippies have their clusters as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/72 "2015-02-04T01:45:12Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > A slight detour for cat health… > > Cats have fewer states that require rabies vaccination although it’s still common. There’s a reason. The rabies vaccine used to be one of the shots associated with injection site sarcoma among other complications (ISTR there’s been an improvement since I had to make the decision last). Colloquially the shot could give them cancer. Having a strictly indoor cat prompts making a real risk to benefit decision regarding some vaccinations (if the law allows.) > > A responsible vet **should** guide the discussion. > > /detour My cat had a vaccine related sarcoma from a feline lukemia shot. She only gets rabies, and only because its required. I’ve been trying to talk the vet into the nasal rabies for her, the vet says it doesn’t work very well (hard to get into kitty noses, I think). She is a strictly indoor cat. But we have a dog and mice do get into the house. So rabies from the mice would be a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/73 "2015-02-04T01:59:01Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > She is a strictly indoor cat. But we have a dog and mice do get into the house. So rabies from the mice would be a possibility. Mice rarely are rabid. An animal has to survive an attack by a rabid predator, and small animals like mice and voles so rarely do that it’s extremely unusual to find a rabid mouse. My vet says that after a certain number of shots, she found that most animals held titers for FeLeuk, and would recommend running a blood titer for indoor cats after, IIRC, six vaccs, and if they held a titer (had permanent immunity), she would recommend against further vaccinations. Also, she rotated the vaccination site. If a cat held a titer, it never got more than two injections (neck, right thigh, left thigh, IIRC) in one site over a lifetime. Our state requires rabies, and the rabies and distemper are one shot, so cats get that every year. Our dogs get a three year shot for rabies, but we take them every year for check-ups and bordetella. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/74 "2015-02-04T02:02:16Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Was that Baby Ian? If so, the parents did not allow an autopsy to determine cause of death, and he had aspirated meconium during the birth process. It’s a sad case of parents being so grief-stricken (rightfully so) that they aren’t capable of rational consideration of the situation. no matter how rightful their grief is, it doesn’t entitle them to coerce other people to do dangerous things. > [@](#): > > Mississippi and West Virginia only allow medical exemptions. No non-medical exemptions for public school children are available. so maybe those hicks in flyover country aren’t necessarily stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/75 "2015-02-04T03:05:02Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Mice rarely are rabid. An animal has to survive an attack by a rabid predator, and small animals like mice and voles so rarely do that it’s extremely unusual to find a rabid mouse. > > My vet says that after a certain number of shots, she found that most animals held titers for FeLeuk, and would recommend running a blood titer for indoor cats after, IIRC, six vaccs, and if they held a titer (had permanent immunity), she would recommend against further vaccinations. Also, she rotated the vaccination site. If a cat held a titer, it never got more than two injections (neck, right thigh, left thigh, IIRC) in one site over a lifetime. Our state requires rabies, and the rabies and distemper are one shot, so cats get that every year. Our dogs get a three year shot for rabies, but we take them every year for check-ups and bordetella. According to our vet, the sarcoma is more likely to come up with the same vaccine - so it was the FeLeuk shot that caused the tumor (we know because they vary the vaccination site), she just won’t get that one any more. She also said FeLeuk is more likely to cause the sarcoma than anything else. Poor kitten had a tumor removed, was spayed, and had surgery for a bowel obstructure all before six months. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/76 "2015-02-04T03:59:33Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Was that Baby Ian? If so, the parents did not allow an autopsy to determine cause of death, and he had aspirated meconium during the birth process. It’s a sad case of parents being so grief-stricken (rightfully so) that they aren’t capable of rational consideration of the situation. Maybe. I’ll go Google “baby Ian.” I just remember reading it, and thinking that if I were the parent, I’d be filing the malpractice suit for giving the second antibiotic so fast-- it seemed pretty obvious to me that it was what really killed him. Aspirating meconium is serious. My son had it in his mouth and throat, but wasn’t breathing when he was born, and had to be suctioned and bagged. They doctor said that it was a sort of fortunate occurrence-- it’s never good when a baby is not breathing, but it was lucky that they got to suction most of the meconium out of him before he took his first breath. They still took the precautions of putting him in an isolette for 12 hours with 10% oxygen, and giving him antibiotic injections. He was fine. He went from having an Apgar of 1 to being a normal newborn in 36 hours. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/77 "2015-02-04T06:58:33Z")
This is the first time I’ve ever seen the general public be pro-vaccine to this degree, actually calling anti-vaxer’s morons and such. It’s so bad people are whining about all the memes about it. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437/78 "2015-02-04T08:40:22Z")
> [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](#): > > (And I get a flu shot every year now, and I never got an MMR shot because I got those diseases, or at least measles and mumps, plus chicken pox, in elementary school - man I’m old! :o ) If you had chicken pox, then you’re at risk for getting shingles. Get your shingles shot! (And hope your insurance covers it! Them shots are expensive!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-feel-like-there-has-been-some-sort-of-phase-shift-in-the-opinion-on-vaccines-recently/711437.md?page=3)