# Does it make sense to say "I'm proud to be an American." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177 "2011-04-13T01:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/41 "2011-04-13T16:49:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “pride” implies some kind of personal accomplishment. Not always. Consider things like the “Black Pride” or “Gay Pride” movements, the point of which isn’t that being black/gay/whatever is an accomplishment, but that it’s something that blacks/gays/whoever can hold their heads up and not feel bad about themselves for being, as opposed to having a sense of shame or inferiority. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/42 "2011-04-13T17:46:34Z")
[Lee Greenwood](http://www.anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/l/lee-greenwood/proud-to-be-an-american.htm) sums it up nicely. Saw him perform that live on a military base after Desert Storm. Wasn’t a dry eye in the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/43 "2011-04-13T17:50:58Z")
I grew up surrounded by immigrants, most of whom had to go through major hassles to get to the U.S., so I have a different context for being “proud” to be an American. Being an American is not something to be taken for granted. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/44 "2011-04-13T18:48:15Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > I don’t understand why people think the Monkeysphere analogy is clever or explains anything at all. You could write the exact same script with humans. It merely restates the problem. It doesn’t explain or justify a damn thing. Yes, people feel more affinity to those they have more affiliations with. This fact is what the OP is precisely trying to deconstruct, not have restated to him with an overwrought analogy. Well, like I said, I think the OP and you are over-thinking this. There’s no need to “justify” the fact that there is us and there is them–it just exists (with or without “justification”). I think the OP is getting hung up on the term “pride.” Sure it means the positive feeling towards oneself for accomplishing something, but it also means the positive feeling associated with being part of a group. It has two meanings. Lots of words are like this. You love your grandma and your wife, but that one word covers two very different (but still similar) feelings. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/45 "2011-04-13T18:55:45Z")
> [@Ruby](#): > > it’s still the best country in the world. For subjective definitions of “best”. :dubious: IMO it makes no sense whatsoever to be proud of an accident (of birth). Pleased, I can understand, but proud? Completely meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/46 "2011-04-13T18:59:02Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > For subjective definitions of “best”. :dubious: There are no objective definitions of “best.” So you’re right. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > IMO it makes no sense whatsoever to be proud of an accident (of birth). Pleased, I can understand, but proud? Completely meaningless. Pride simply has two meanings, and you simply are stuck on only one of them. There are lots of emotion words like this. Take fear for example–one can fear zombies but also fear god (or God or G-d or whatever else, if you must). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/47 "2011-04-13T19:17:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. Both because it’s a matter of just being born here for most people, and because America has plenty of awful things in its history. And present, for that matter. More than enough to make it not worthy of pride. America has enough great things in its history to make it worth being proud of. It would be one thing we we tried to whitewash how we treated Blacks during slavery and segregation and how we treated Native Americans generally but we don’t. We criticise ourselves all the time. We are the greatest nationn the world has ever known and we have done more to spread freedom and democracy than any other nation in history. Yeah, I’m proud to be an American. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/48 "2011-04-13T19:33:32Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There are no objective definitions of “best.” So you’re right. :rolleyes: Dunno what the rolleyes is for. Do you deny me my subjective opinion? Sure, you and I may agree that it’s subjective, but it’s a statement presented as an objective superlative, and to me it sounds frankly vainglorious and defensive, coming from anyone of any nationality. On preview we now have: > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > We are the greatest nationn the world has ever known That one isn’t presented as ambiguous or subjective in any way. And yet it isn’t objectively true either, since it is subjective as well. > [@Rand Rover](#): > > Pride simply has two meanings, and you simply are stuck on only one of them. > > There are lots of emotion words like this. Take fear for example–one can fear zombies but also fear god (or God or G-d or whatever else, if you must). I know nothing of your fear/fear thing. I can’t see a definition of “proud” [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proud) that fulfils, to me, the non-arrogant definition you seem to be overlaying onto the word. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/49 "2011-04-13T19:39:12Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Dunno what the rolleyes is for. Do you deny me my subjective opinion? Sure, you and I may agree that it’s subjective, but it’s a statement presented as an objective superlative, and to me it sounds frankly vainglorious and defensive, coming from anyone of any nationality. > > On preview we now have:That one isn’t presented as ambiguous or subjective in any way. And yet it isn’t objectively true either, since it is subjective as well. You were pointing out the extreme obvious. Of course someone saying “my country is the best” is making a subjective statement; no one (well, except for idiots) would even think they were doing otherwise. > [@](#): > > I know nothing of your fear/fear thing. I can’t see a definition of “proud” [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proud) that fulfils, to me, the non-arrogant definition you seem to be overlaying onto the word. Someone above nailed it with the example of Gay Pride. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/50 "2011-04-13T19:41:16Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not always. Consider things like the “Black Pride” or “Gay Pride” movements, the point of which isn’t that being black/gay/whatever is an accomplishment, but that it’s something that blacks/gays/whoever can hold their heads up and not feel bad about themselves for being, as opposed to having a sense of shame or inferiority. Which makes sense for blacks/gays/minorities who have historically been told they should be ashamed of who they are, which is not the case with Americans. > [@Oakminster](#): > > [Lee Greenwood](http://www.anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/l/lee-greenwood/proud-to-be-an-american.htm) sums it up nicely. Saw him perform that live on a military base after Desert Storm. Wasn’t a dry eye in the crowd. People laughed that hard? They played that glurgey POS song in some video we had to watch in Basic Training. When it was over, the drill sergeant asked, “Is there anybody here who didn’t like that song?” I was the only one who raised my hand. I waited for my punishment. His response: “Me either, private! What a stupid pile of crap.” ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/51 "2011-04-13T19:49:45Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You were pointing out the extreme obvious. Of course someone saying “my country is the best” is making a subjective statement; no one (well, except for idiots) would even think they were doing otherwise. Really? The Chinese go in for a lot of that too. Most of the people I’ve met do tend to believe that it is the objective truth, though. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/52 "2011-04-13T20:46:40Z")
[THE TUBES-PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN-(ORGULLOSO DE SER AMERICANO)](http://youtu.be/y7NRppf8Ibg) The above link is just for anyone who hasn’t heard, or mis-remembers the song. If you do not think that song isn’t performed with tongue firmly in cheek, you’re missing the point. While it isn’t an anti-American screed set to a catchy tune, neither is it “America Uber Alles”. It’s just a funny song with (IMO) a catchy tune. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/53 "2011-04-13T23:17:29Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I can’t see a definition of “proud” [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proud) that fulfils, to me, the non-arrogant definition you seem to be overlaying onto the word. Do you think that _self-respect_ and _honor_ only occur in arrogant people? ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/54 "2011-04-14T02:44:04Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > For subjective definitions of “best”. :dubious: > > IMO it makes no sense whatsoever to be proud of an accident (of birth). Pleased, I can understand, but proud? Completely meaningless. Are you being intentionally obtuse? Of course, the accepted definition of “best” in my country is subjective. If you believe that the pride = arrogance then we will not see eye-to-eye. I’ve seen the “ugly American” when I was abroad and can tell you that I was not proud of my fellow countryman at that moment. But in no way does that alter the pride and gratitude that I feel for being blessed to be born here. I think I understand your sentiment that it was an accident of birth that my gene pool combined to be born in the US. That “accident” doesn’t change the fact that I’m a part of a great country (USA) that is a small part of a greater group (humanity). Have you never been a part of a group that you felt proud to be associated with? I don’t understand why civic pride is such a hard concept to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/55 "2011-04-14T14:49:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The virtues of America are beside the point. My question is why I personally should feel pride in that if I personally had nothing to do with it. Arguably, as a member of the voting and working public, don’t you have something to do with it on a daily basis? Or approximately yearly (by voting), if we’re presuming to talk about America as its own entity rather than as the agglomeration of everyone in it? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/56 "2011-04-14T15:42:47Z")
I agree you can be proud for other people. It’s an emotion that is not always selfish, but that doesn’t help with the “proud to be” construction, as you are obviously talking about yourself. However, there is another meaning, and that meaning is not being ashamed. What “I’m proud to be an American” means is that I am not ashamed of telling other people that I am an American. In fact, it means that I am happy to tell them. There’s nothing wrong with not feeling this way, either. If you think this country sucks, you might not want to tell people, as, if America sucks and you are apart of America, then you suck, too. But it’s silly to condemn people for having feelings that you don’t. And you’re talking to someone who won’t join anything that says “I’m proud to be a Christian” because pride has too many negative associations. I’d still never tell anyone they were wrong for how they felt about it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/57 "2011-04-14T17:00:06Z")
What if you’re an Okie from Muskogee? Is that OK? ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/58 "2011-04-15T02:25:30Z")
Merle Haggard thought it was OK to be from OK. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/59 "2011-04-15T15:42:57Z")
> [@Ruby](#): > > I think I understand your sentiment that it was an accident of birth that my gene pool combined to be born in the US. That “accident” doesn’t change the fact that I’m a part of a great country (USA) that is a small part of a greater group (humanity). > > Have you never been a part of a group that you felt proud to be associated with? I don’t understand why civic pride is such a hard concept to grasp. I can’t speak for **jimm** or the OP, but yes, I have felt this kind of civic pride. It is a natural human emotion. I don’t think anyone here is claiming that civic pride isn’t “real.” That said: I think it is irrational, and that we should fight against it. ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177/60 "2011-04-15T16:07:50Z")
I can well remember the elation I felt when playing volleyball (I played very badly) and one of the actually decent players on my team managed to hit the ball over the net, then the other team missed the return. It was not any pride of accomplishment - I never managed to so much as lay my hands on the ball, except when it was my turn to serve. And I never even felt much pride when my serve went over - mostly relief. But when a teammate made a good play, that emotion was definitely this type of pride. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-make-sense-to-say-im-proud-to-be-an-american/578177.md?page=4)