# Does it matter to society if language is cruder or fashion less formal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2026, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473 "2026-02-07T17:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2026, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/81 "2026-02-16T21:33:13Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > “Why are you even wearing those clothes if you’re not comfortable? You should only wear comfortable clothes.” Don’t you just hate pants? Regarding language, the thing about formal speech that makes me cautious or suspicious is situations like “how dare you not address me as ‘sir’, boy?” and all the baggage that comes with such an exchange. People have been beaten or killed for not speaking properly. That goes much farther than the formal speak out one side of the mouth and racist slurs out the other hypocrisy. Constant vulgarity may be a different matter, but at least it lets you see the reality of the speaker versus hiding behind eloquence. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2026, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/82 "2026-02-16T21:37:31Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Constant vulgarity may be a different matter, but at least it lets you see the reality of the speaker versus hiding behind eloquence Eloquence is separate from the register of speech. There’s plenty of poetry that is eloquent and vulgar, especially in popular music. There’s also plenty of formal speech that is stilted and painful to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2026, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/83 "2026-02-16T21:49:19Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Constant vulgarity may be a different matter, but at least it lets you see the reality of the speaker Why do you assume that vulgarity is not an act. Why do you assume eloquence is an act? There’s no factual basis for either of those assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2026, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/84 "2026-02-16T22:08:31Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > There’s plenty of poetry that is eloquent and vulgar, especially in popular music. Isn’t that true! Boy, is there much vulgarity in the Pogues’ “Fairytale Of New York”, but it’s also great poetry. I’d call it creative and eloquent cursing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2026, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/85 "2026-02-16T23:16:35Z")
Cursing also is regional. New York/New Jersey culture is famous for everybody swearing, from finance bros and CEOs to dock workers and cab drivers to everybody who walks down a street, male or female. Upstate New York is far different. Cursing is private in groups; you virtually never hear it in public settings. (Like honking car horns: almost never except as a warning.) From what I’ve read, some cities in Europe are recognized as cursing capitals, while others have a class separation of cursers and non-cursers. (Or cursors, which spell check likes better. Fuck you spell check, I’m right.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2026, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/86 "2026-02-17T21:03:57Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Isn’t that true! Boy, is there much vulgarity in the Pogues’ “Fairytale Of New York”, but it’s also great poetry. There’s not _that_ much - just the one word, really. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2026, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/87 "2026-02-17T21:10:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s not _that_ much - just the one word, really. Yeah, maybe two, three depends on how you define it- > **[Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=43c0733073c9c04f&sxsrf=ANbL-n63kD4A4pAW_9cbEVk0TNXV7_id2g:1771362479895&q=fairytale+of+new+york+lyrics&si=AL3DRZE7_A6z7S63Al1C6cDWLHdQVMtSb6jnjSSwr3yX2TfJZeKJFhlZdzZC2i34ZQpGx6mSUZC9zX-A6XuKNo6uhku-0S2lSLgK-OTyreT8zleNKniFIkMoz1P60HT2qazmWW-KJmRtaNIXGTQZTFxRLuJEMnM5pCdrUfai_ROf58zYIgDbQs0%3D&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0yYe7t-GSAxUaC0QIHdcFFNEQjukCegQIEhAC&ictx=1&biw=1920&bih=945&dpr=1)** _"You’re a bum, you’re a punk, you’re an old slut on junk_ _Lying there almost dead on a drip in that bed_ _You scumbag, you maggot, you cheap, lousy faggot_ _Happy Christmas, your arse, I pray God it’s our last"_ But certainly the song isnt riddled with profanity, that is just one verse out of four. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2026, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/88 "2026-02-18T07:15:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, but “cocksucker?” It makes perfect sense when you consider the extreme historic homophobia of our society; it’s accusing a man of not only performing a homosexual act, but a “submissive” one. So of course it was a super insulting thing to accuse a man of back in the day. Whenever I hear it I’m reminded of how on another forum a gay poster was called a “cocksucker” and responded with: > With _gusto!_ Insult _fail!_ Makes hard for me to take it seriously these days. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2026, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/89 "2026-02-18T16:52:24Z")
That’s beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2026, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/90 "2026-02-18T18:16:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It makes perfect sense… I wasn’t asking why the term is insulting, I was asking if it was a common insult in the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2026, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473/91 "2026-02-19T03:15:36Z")
Following up with a little more detail: as noted above, “cocksucker” seems to have no written attestation before 1885. Google Ngram Viewer states its incidence rate as pure zero up to the first nonzero value in 1897, followed by a brief and small uptick around 1900 and an extremely low but nonzero rate until, surprise surprise, the 1960s. Of course, Google Ngrams aren’t a comprehensive list of everything published, and of course plenty of obscene terms circulate in speech long before they’re ever permitted in print. But my best guess would be that “cocksucker” as a term of opprobrium (and homophobic slur) wasn’t invented until about the last quarter of the 19th century. How commonly it was used once it got invented is an open question, AFAICT, and one that may never be answered due to the widespread contemporary consensus on the literal “unprintability” of such insults. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-matter-to-society-if-language-is-cruder-or-fashion-less-formal/1027473.md?page=4)