# Does it violate any rights to set alight a building in which a fugitive is located? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 13, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154 "2013-02-13T04:58:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/1 "2013-02-13T04:58:18Z")
This may be better suited for GD, but I don’t want to be so presumptuous to think that there isn’t a cut-and-dried answer; there may well be. There is a YouTube video which purports to carry a recording of a police scanner at the presumed Christopher Dorner shootout at Big Bear. ([Link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdqybEfy9w)) Obviously, I can’t speak to the veracity of the recording, but it seems as though the police deliberately set fire to the cabin in which Dorner was believed to be pinned down. If this were to occur (whether in this situation or in some hypothetical situation), is this a reasonable and acceptable tactic for law enforcement to attempt to force a fugitive from their hiding spot? My initial thought is that, provided that law enforcement is willing to assume liability for damage to property, then there is no violation of any of the suspect’s rights where it is believed that there is real and imminent danger. That is, it is a suitable tactic to attempt to “smoke out” the fugitive. With that said, I have a distinct issue with this, in that it seems that they can’t assure that their fugitive will necessarily have an opportunity to exit safely, which in itself must then make it a violation to obvious rights (though I can’t really enumerate what rights it breaches). What say? Is there a clear and correct answer in a situation of this sort? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/2 "2013-02-13T05:46:39Z")
Flosi’s mob tried this at Njal’s place. It didn’t end well. It’s just premeditated murder, which also usefully destroys inconvenient evidence. I don’t know what a ‘right’ is. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/3 "2013-02-13T08:06:01Z")
Courts generally approach situations like this as a balancing of risks and less in terms of looking at what rights might be violated. Here the question that would probably be asked is what would the less extreme alternatives be and what risks would they entail to make them unacceptable. For example why couldn’t the police simply wait him out? Even if he had food and water and gas masks to avoid being gassed, he still would have to sleep eventually and there have to be ways of detecting that. However arguing against that it could be noted that Dorner had some extremely powerful weaponry, stuff not easily available. For example he had [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82) 50 caliber sniper rifle that I think has an effect range of something over a mile and can slice through a lot of armor like it’s not even there. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/4 "2013-02-13T15:18:31Z")
It amounts to using deadly force, and so I think it would be subject to the same analysis and justifiable only in the same limited circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/5 "2013-02-13T15:26:12Z")
Setting fire to a home, as in the case at hand, is a “SEIZURE” under the 4th Amendment, as the persons Liberty has been minimized. The Q is, was the seizure reasonable?? As Tom points out, the exact facts are at issue here. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/6 "2013-02-13T15:39:42Z")
IIRC, The usual rule of thumb is - the police may attempt to kill if the subject is presenting an immediate danger. Guy walking down the street holding a gun - not immediate. Guy raising gun to point at LEO or someone else - immediate danger. Reasonable force in response to the immediate situation… SO the question is whether this constitutes deadly force? Yes, the guy was extremely dangerous, but was the current danger Immediate? Of course, the come-back is the guy could easily leave the house before being burned. But, the predictable(?) outcome is that he would not. So is the force justified and reasonable in the circumstances? If they know there are (might be?) hostages inside, how does that affect the situation? If the police thought the force was justified and reasonable, why did they basically conceal the action - tell CNN etc. to turn off live feed, probably not admit that the fire was set by them, etc. I saw some NRA-paranoid type on a rant on some video, suggesting that like Waco, the police were going to burn him up regardless of potential hostages because they were determined to kill someone who had killed a cop. Not necesarily true, since many cop-killers actually make it to trial. But… enough unanswered questions to make the conspiracy types talk it up. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/7 "2013-02-13T15:40:23Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > It’s just premeditated murder, which also usefully destroys inconvenient evidence. Is it? I assume the guy had the ability to come out once it was set on fire. ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/8 "2013-02-13T17:14:09Z")
Perhaps in 1885 the police would set a barn or house on fire to smoke out a bad guy, but it is not an acceptable approach in today’s enlightened times, [MOVE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE)notwithstanding. Some tear gas, smoke, and flash-bang grenades produce high temperatures during their operation, but are designed specifically not to start fires. Nothing is perfect however, and if a grenade rolls under a low sofa or curtains, there may be the possibility of ignition. All of these things can be avoided by doing what the nice policeman tells you to in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/9 "2013-02-13T17:31:39Z")
In addition to the MOVE incident, let’s mention [Waco](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege) and the [Bonus Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army). This is nothing new. As soon as I heard that they had the the guy pinned down in a cabin I said “What time is the fire?” ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/10 "2013-02-13T17:56:40Z")
I don’t want to hijack this into a debate, but it seems that a related question to “What rights are violated when a fugitive-occupied building is ignited?” would be, “What moral or ethical standards are violated when a fugitive-occupied building is ignited?” While rights and laws are designed to codify an ethical norm, they can also be misused to excuse immoral behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/11 "2013-02-13T18:03:07Z")
In Waco, the fires were set by the defenders. The bonus army had no genuine buildings at all. I’m surprised you failed to mention a true analogue JW BHooth. ---
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/12 "2013-02-13T18:04:50Z")
Interesting replies so far, thank you. It seems that there may well be a debate about whether, in this circumstance, Dorner presented a real and immediate threat. I’m also very interested in **CC** ’s suggestion that there is a very related question in whether there are moral and ethical standards that apply to the situation that are beyond the basic rights of the fugitive. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/13 "2013-02-13T18:16:11Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > Setting fire to a home, as in the case at hand, is a “SEIZURE” under the 4th Amendment, as the persons Liberty has been minimized. The Q is, was the seizure reasonable?? It may be a “seizure”, but it also deadly force. So while “was the seizure reasonable?” may be a valid question, it certainly is not the _only_ question. Nor, I would argue, is it the more interesting one. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/14 "2013-02-13T18:44:52Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > Perhaps in 1885 the police would set a barn or house on fire to smoke out a bad guy, but it is not an acceptable approach in today’s enlightened times, [MOVE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE)notwithstanding. There was at the time and is today absolutely nothing enlightened about the Philadelphia Police Department. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/15 "2013-02-13T19:54:05Z")
Maybe the suspect would have had a chance to escape, but what about an undisclosed hostage tied up in the closet? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/16 "2013-02-13T20:11:57Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Maybe the suspect would have had a chance to escape, but what about an undisclosed hostage tied up in the closet? That would be terrible but it would be even further from premeditated murder. As for morals and ethics (honest question coming) is it immoral or unethical to take law into one’s own hands … when you are 100% sure that somebody is guilty and when you are quite certain that most in society would go along with the end result (ie bad guy dead very efficiently). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/17 "2013-02-13T21:19:54Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > Perhaps in 1885 the police would set a barn or house on fire to smoke out a bad guy, but it is not an acceptable approach in today’s enlightened times, [MOVE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE)notwithstanding. It’s how they tried to flush John Wilkes Booth out but Boston Corbett had other ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/18 "2013-02-14T08:32:45Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Is it? I assume the guy had the ability to come out once it was set on fire. Exiting a burning house is not always easy. And the assumption may be qualified by injury, or a stroke, or extraneous circumstance ( such as ingestion of drugs or alcohol ). > [@What\_the](#): > > > [@Alley Dweller](#): > > > > Maybe the suspect would have had a chance to escape, but what about an undisclosed hostage tied up in the closet? > > That would be terrible but it would be even further from premeditated murder. > > As for morals and ethics (honest question coming) is it immoral or unethical to take law into one’s own hands … when you are 100% sure that somebody is guilty and when you are quite certain that most in society would go along with the end result (ie bad guy dead very efficiently). A death sentence should at least warrant a trial. And the passing views of the mob can have no effect in judging morality. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/19 "2013-02-14T14:20:04Z")
Well, if the building belongs to your liege lord, you might be violating his property rights by taking such a medieval action. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154/20 "2013-02-14T15:23:14Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Exiting a burning house is not always easy. And the assumption may be qualified by injury, or a stroke, or extraneous circumstance ( such as ingestion of drugs or alcohol ). I heard that after the tear gas / flash bangs were sent in, a single shot rang out. I presume suicide. The pussy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-it-violate-any-rights-to-set-alight-a-building-in-which-a-fugitive-is-located/650154.md?page=2)