Does it violate any rights to set alight a building in which a fugitive is located?

[Loach]

@solosam

The LAPD already demonstrated they’re willing to use deadly force even when they have no idea if they are shooting the right guy.

@Loach

I hope you realize that California is a big place. Big Bear is not in LA.

@ZenBeam

Irrelevant.

@Loach

Not relevant to all of the issues brought up in this thread but totally relevant to the post I quoted.

Sam tried to say that the actions of the LAPD in an earlier incident correlated to their actions at the cabin. I pointed out that the cabin was not in LA and the LAPD were not involved. So how is that not relevant?

[PatriotGrrrl]

@Turble

In addition to the MOVE incident, let’s mention Waco and the Bonus Army.

This is nothing new. As soon as I heard that they had the the guy pinned down in a cabin I said “What time is the fire?”

Me too. From what I’ve seen, criminals often burn down the building they’re holed up in a few minutes after flash bangs, tear gas etc. get fired in. Purely coincidence, of course.

[Loach]

@PatriotGrrrl

Me too. From what I’ve seen, criminals often burn down the building they’re holed up in a few minutes after flash bangs, tear gas etc. get fired in. Purely coincidence, of course.

That is what is called confirmation bias. I also know of plenty of times when such devices are used and no fire happens. Those cases tend not to get much press or are easily forgotten.

[Stan_Shmenge]

@deltasigma

For example he had this 50 caliber sniper rifle that

Is that even legal to own?

[Loach]

@Stan_Shmenge

Is that even legal to own?

If I am reading CA law correctly the version that is modified to .416 is legal in CA. It’s very expensive. Around 9k. And the ammo will bankrupt you too.

[MikeF]

@BrotherCadfael

I seem to recall that the standard is something like 21 feet, under the theory that a man with a knife can close that distance before an officer could respond. Mythbusters did an episode on this, with Jamie holding a knife and rushing Adam, who was armed with a gun. Jamie’s assault was, frankly, terrifying and he was able to beat Adam up to something like 35 feet.

Of course, this IS Jamie Hyneman we are talking about.

The 21’ thing is not a standard at all, although since first used as a training point it has taken on a life of its own. Its merely a demonstration that the reaction time of an officer lags behind the actions of an offender and that this lag can be deadly. Its just another example of how much the real world of force encounters differs greatly from the perceptions of most of the public. I’d be happy to expound on this but most people are quite content to believe what they see on TV is an accurate reflection of reality. That’s too bad.

[spifflog]

A question that isn’t all that important. Who pays to get this building replaced? California? The owner’s insurance company?

[ZenBeam]

@Loach

Sam tried to say that the actions of the LAPD in an earlier incident correlated to their actions at the cabin. I pointed out that the cabin was not in LA and the LAPD were not involved. So how is that not relevant?

He did not “say that the actions of the LAPD in an earlier incident correlated to their actions at the cabin”. He was responding to your comment

@Loach

Even if there was nothing but emotionless robotic cops out there they were justified in using deadly force at anytime during the incident.

with an example of use of deadly force during this situation where it was clearly inappropriate and unjustified. It shows that “justified in using deadly force at anytime during the incident” is false. It doesn’t matter where that incident occurred.

[Loach]

@ZenBeam

He did not “say that the actions of the LAPD in an earlier incident correlated to their actions at the cabin”. He was responding to your comment with an example of use of deadly force during this situation where it was clearly inappropriate and unjustified. It shows that “justified in using deadly force at anytime during the incident” is false. It doesn’t matter where that incident occurred.

You are incorrect. And comparing apples and oranges. Two separate incidents. In one LAPD was not justified in using deadly force. In the other the San Bernadino Sheriffs Office was justified in using deadly force. In the first incident the emotions of the LAPD can be assumed to have played a major role in what happened. In the second incident (the shoot out at the cabin if I’m not being clear) the emotions of the LAPD were not an issue. Because it didn’t happen in LA and they were not involved. And beyond that, deadly force was absolutely justified regardless of the emotions of anyone.

Maybe its me. When trying to put down my thoughts while typing on the phone i tend to be less articulate. I guess its easier to organize my thoughts on a bigger screen. But I really have no idea why you have a problem comprehending this. It’s like having a conversation in the game room.

The Cowboys defensive game plan is why they lost the Superbowl.
The 49ers lost the Superbowl not the Cowboys.
Irrelevant.
Really?

I made my original comment because I have seen over and over in discussions on this topic people using LAPD as a generic term for all police. As if they have no concept of geography. In fact most of what happened during this entire manhunt happened far from LA and the LAPD. Dorner was in San Diego (125 miles south) and then he was killed in Big Bear (90 miles east). About the distance between Philly and Baltimore. I thought we tried to be accurate around here.

[Loach]

@Cartooniverse

No. Not in the least. But thanks for painting a picture of my intentions anyway. :rolleyes:

What I meant was that when the tear gas and flash/bang devices hit, he should have walked out that door and given up with hands raised. Would he have been executed on the spot, with hands in the air? I hope not. I know the LAPD has a real rep, but this is America. You want to start cheering for the local PO’s becoming judge, jury and executioner? Move to South Sudan.

I would have hoped he would have been taken into custody, arraigned and prosecuted. And convicted. You know. Like they do in The United States of America?

See?

It doesn’t matter what the rep of the LAPD is. Or even if it is 100% true. Because the scene at the cabin was being run by the Sheriff of San Bernadino County and they were almost 100 miles from LA. The LAPD offered assistance but as far as I can tell it was not needed. Command and control was completely with the Sheriff.

[solosam]

I did not realize the LAPD was not itself involved in the final incident. I stand corrected.

[pravnik]

@BrotherCadfael

I seem to recall that the standard is something like 21 feet, under the theory that a man with a knife can close that distance before an officer could respond. Mythbusters did an episode on this, with Jamie holding a knife and rushing Adam, who was armed with a gun. Jamie’s assault was, frankly, terrifying and he was able to beat Adam up to something like 35 feet.

The exercise you’re thinking of is called the Tueller drill.

[ducati]

@Cartooniverse

There was at the time and is today absolutely nothing enlightened about the Philadelphia Police Department.

I have no evidence to contradict your statement.

@Stan_Shmenge

Is that even legal to own?

Yep. I have one, and know about 5 other guys that do as well.
We take turns banging a metal plate at about a thousand yards.

Because we can.

[Roboticwurm]

@MikeF

I don’t know about the exact law in California by here in the Garden State deadly force is permitted if the suspect presents an IMMINENT threat of death or serious bodily injury. This is different than IMMEDIATE. Say a guy is walking up to me with a knife raised over his head, refusing orders to stop. The law does not require me to wait until he is within stabbing distance (immediate danger) to shoot. Nor does it permit me to shoot him when is 100 yards away. There is no magic number but somewhere in there the danger becomes imminent. This maniac, in my opinion, was an imminent deadly danger and everything, including setting the house on fire or shooting it with a missile, would be on the table, both legally and morally. It would be objectively reasonable under the circumstances as is required by Graham v. Connor.

“Deadly force” isn’t the issue here. Some states allow executions by lethal injection but none allow execution through burning at the stake. Is setting a building alight to kill/harm a suspect as legitimate from a law enforcement stand point as killing them with a bullet is?