# Does John McCain meet the requirements to be President?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 1, 2008, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802 "2008-02-01T01:49:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/81 "2008-03-02T23:40:27Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] So, if it’s a Political Question and the courts won’t hear it, then why not Gov Arnie? [/QUOTE] There are a few types of political questions. What makes McCain’s issue a political question is that there are inadequate legal standards for a judge to apply–it’s too much of a gray area and the political process provides a pretty good check on the Constitutionality anyway. If Arnold ran for prez the case is much clearer; he doesn’t have any plausible claim to meet the wording of present statutes or any interpretation of Article II. In that case, instead of more or less arbitrarily choosing an interpretation of _jus soli_, the court would just be applying the legal norm that everyone agrees on: no naturalized aliens as President. The problem with political question doctrine is that there is no clear line on what constitutes a sufficiently gray area of law. The phrase “republican form of government” has been held as too vague for judicial ruling, but “due process” is not. It’s largely a matter of what the courts want to rule on and what they don’t want to. Most observers thought Bush v. Gore was a political question, but the Supreme Court disagreed. They wanted to rule on it. They’re not gonna do that in this case given their political predilections (if it ever came up), but what they ought to do legally is a tougher call. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/82 "2008-03-03T06:12:03Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] There are a few types of political questions. What makes McCain’s issue a political question is that there are inadequate legal standards for a judge to apply–it’s too much of a gray area and the political process provides a pretty good check on the Constitutionality anyway. If Arnold ran for prez the case is much clearer; he doesn’t have any plausible claim to meet the wording of present statutes or any interpretation of Article II. In that case, instead of more or less arbitrarily choosing an interpretation of _jus soli_, the court would just be applying the legal norm that everyone agrees on: no naturalized aliens as President. The problem with political question doctrine is that there is no clear line on what constitutes a sufficiently gray area of law. The phrase “republican form of government” has been held as too vague for judicial ruling, but “due process” is not. It’s largely a matter of what the courts want to rule on and what they don’t want to. Most observers thought Bush v. Gore was a political question, but the Supreme Court disagreed. They wanted to rule on it. They’re not gonna do that in this case given their political predilections (if it ever came up), but what they ought to do legally is a tougher call. [/QUOTE] So Congress passes a Bill: “Gov. Arnold S. is hereby a natural born Citizen”. Or there’s a Executive Order. Now we have a gray area. Then what? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/83 "2008-03-03T06:47:42Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] So Congress passes a Bill: “Gov. Arnold S. is hereby a natural born Citizen”. Or there’s a Executive Order. Now we have a gray area. Then what? [/QUOTE] A facially unconstitutional bill or executive order doesn’t delete a constitutional norm that has been constant for 200+ years. The difference between McCain and Arnold is that for one there is no legal norm to apply (we have absolutely no interpretation of how broadly _jus soli_ is supposed to apply and whether “natural-born” includes _jus sanguinis_) and for the other there is a crystal clear legal norm. ETA: In other words, while the term “natural-born” is unclear and probably not subject to judicial definition, the one thing we do know is that it excludes naturalized aliens. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/84 "2008-03-04T01:50:17Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] A facially unconstitutional bill or executive order doesn’t delete a constitutional norm that has been constant for 200+ years. The difference between McCain and Arnold is that for one there is no legal norm to apply (we have absolutely no interpretation of how broadly _jus soli_ is supposed to apply and whether “natural-born” includes _jus sanguinis_) and for the other there is a crystal clear legal norm. ETA: In other words, while the term “natural-born” is unclear and probably not subject to judicial definition, the one thing we do know is that it excludes naturalized aliens. [/QUOTE] Ah, but Austria was a US/Allied occupied nation in 1947. (until 1955 in fact). Thus, it could be argued that Austria was part of the USA. Ha! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/85 "2008-03-04T02:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Ah, but Austria was a US/Allied occupied nation in 1947. (until 1955 in fact). Thus, it could be argued that Austria was part of the USA. Ha! 😛 [/QUOTE] Well, it _could_, but no one ever has. 😉 Again, the fact that McCain was born in the Canal Zone, an area under US jurisdiction but not actually part of the US, has nothing to do with his citizenship, even though people incorrectly seem to think it does. McCain’s citizenship is based on his parentage, not the location of his birth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/86 "2008-03-04T02:09:25Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Well, it _could_, but no one ever has. 😉 [/QUOTE] One could argue that the Panama Zone is given special consideration and it was only US Occupied Territory, right? 😕 I am not trying to say that Arnie gets in or that McCain is out, but dudes seems to be saying that there’s not even a ghost of a chance of a legal argument for either. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/87 "2008-03-04T02:18:13Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] One could argue that the Panama Zone is given special consideration and it was only US Occupied Territory, right? 😕 [/QUOTE] No it’s not. Once again, McCain’s birth in the Canal Zone is a complete red herring with regard to his citizenship. It has nothing at all to do with it in a legal sense. The Canal Zone was not an “Occupied Territory.” The Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty of 1903 granted the US the right to act _as if_ it were sovereign in the Canal Zone. It did not actually transfer the Zone to the US; it always remained technically part of Panama. Panama regards those born in the Zone as Panamanian citizens by birth. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/88 "2008-03-04T02:58:40Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] McCain insists it’s no problem but doesn’t know why his campaign asked for a legal opinion on the subject, and Obama is cosponsoring a bill to make it clear that McCain and anyone else born to U.S. troops while serving abroad is eligible to serve as President: [/QUOTE] Of course, it’s not like Obama is a disinterested observer here. He had a non-American father (and stepfather) and grew up in Indonesia, so his family’s “American-ness” is arguably on much shakier ground than McCain’s. I’ll bet money right now that Obama (assuming he gets the Democratic nomination) won’t say a word against McCain on the issue on eligibility. The way I see the situation, McCain was a US citizen from the moment of of his birth, by virtue of his having American parents. Common sense argues that this makes him “natural-born,” so if McCain’s opponents think that he isn’t “natural-born,” then the burden of proof is on them, not McCain. ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/89 "2008-03-04T03:14:47Z")
I think if someone really wanted to make an issue of it, the appropriate place would be the Republican National Convention. Some disgruntled delegate makes a motion , the McCain Delegates are unconstitutional and should not be seated. Odds of this happening low and odds of it succeeding , even less. But fun to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/90 "2008-03-04T03:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Ah, but Austria was a US/Allied occupied nation in 1947. (until 1955 in fact). Thus, it could be argued that Austria was part of the USA. Ha! 😛 [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, Schwarzenegger appears to have been born in Styria, which was at the time under [British occupation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Austria_1945-55.png). 😉 More seriously, [QUOTE=Colibri] The Canal Zone was not an “Occupied Territory.” The Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty of 1903 granted the US the right to act _as if_ it were sovereign in the Canal Zone. It did not actually transfer the Zone to the US; it always remained technically part of Panama. Panama regards those born in the Zone as Panamanian citizens by birth. [/QUOTE] Do you know if this means McCain has dual American/Panamanian citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/91 "2008-03-04T03:49:16Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] Of course, it’s not like Obama is a disinterested observer here. He had a non-American father (and stepfather) and grew up in Indonesia, so his family’s “American-ness” is arguably on much shakier ground than McCain’s. [/QUOTE] 😕 Obama was born in the US, in Honolulu, Hawaii. I believe he was in Indonesia for only four or five years, from ages 6-10. I don’t question McCain’s OR Obama’s eligibility. McCain was born to Americans. Obama was born IN America to an American. I see no problem with either one. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/92 "2008-03-04T04:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=Hypnagogic Jerk] Do you know if this means McCain has dual American/Panamanian citizenship? [/QUOTE] I believe it would be necessary for him to apply for it. However, should he do so [this article](http://latino.msn.com/especiales/elecciones2008/Articles/ArticlePage.aspx?cp-documentid=6201876) indicates there would be no problem granting it: > [@](#): > > Candidato a la Casa Blanca es tan estadounidense como panameño > > Panamá, 8 feb (EFE).- El más consolidado aspirante republicano a la Presidencia de EE.UU., John McCain, es panameño y, si quisiera, podría reclamar su nacionalidad en cualquier momento, aseguraron hoy fuentes oficiales. > > Aunque el debate en EE.UU. apuntó a la imposibilidad de que se postulara al cargo por no haber nacido en su territorio, en Panamá se destaca que podría ser presidente “sin ningún problema”. > > El Tribunal Electoral de Panamá señaló a Efe que el país no discrimina el territorio nacional y que McCain, que nació en la antigua Zona del Canal, área gobernada hasta 1979 por EE.UU. para administrar la vía interoceánica, es panameño a todos los efectos. Translation: Candidate for the White House is as much US as Panamanian Panama 8 Feb. (EFE) The most likely Republican candidate for US President, John McCain, is Panamanian, and, if he wishes to, could reclaim his nationality at any time, official sources assured today. Although the debate in the US indicates the impossibility that he can apply for the position because he was not born in its territory, in Panama it is pointed out that he could be president “without any problem.” The Electoral Tribunal of Panama indicated to EFE [News Agency] that the country does not distinguish the national territory and that McCain, who was born in the former Canal Zone, an area governed by the US until 1979 in order to administrate the international waterway, is Panamanian in all respects. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/93 "2008-03-04T04:52:56Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] 😕 Obama was born in the US, in Honolulu, Hawaii. I believe he was in Indonesia for only four or five years, from ages 6-10. I don’t question McCain’s OR Obama’s eligibility. McCain was born to Americans. Obama was born IN America to an American. I see no problem with either one. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I should have been more clear. Obama’s potential problems are entirely political, not legal, but they’re real nonetheless. If Democrats start claiming that McCain is not American enough to be president, then Republicans are sure to counter by pointing out that Obama himself spent his formative years outside the US, being raised in a Muslim household no less. Yes, I know that Obama belongs to a Christian church now, but given the current political climate, Obama’s family history is undoubtedly not something that he wants people to think about. Thus, it is in his interest to make the issue of McCain’s eligibility go away quickly. All that having been said, I’m sure that both he and McCain are fully qualified to be president. I’ll probably vote for McCain, but I’d much rather see Obama win than Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/94 "2008-03-04T05:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I believe it would be necessary for him to apply for it. However, should he do so [this article](http://latino.msn.com/especiales/elecciones2008/Articles/ArticlePage.aspx?cp-documentid=6201876) indicates there would be no problem granting it: [/quote] Thanks! > [@Colibri's translation of the article](#): > > Although the debate in the US indicates the impossibility that he can apply for the position because he was not born in its territory, in Panama it is pointed out that he could be president “without any problem.” We’ll see what he does if he loses the election in November. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/95 "2008-03-04T14:19:18Z")
[QUOTE=Hypnagogic Jerk] Thanks! We’ll see what he does if he loses the election in November. 😉 [/QUOTE] Incidentally, the article also indicates that McCain’s sons also would qualify as Panamanian citizens, given the birthplace of their father. While I haven’t tried looking up Kenyan citizenship law, I would guess that Obama might also qualify for Kenyan citizenship on the basis of his father’s birth. So we could have the interesting situation that both major presidential candidates might be qualified for dual citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/96 "2008-03-04T17:02:55Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Incidentally, the article also indicates that McCain’s sons also would qualify as Panamanian citizens, given the birthplace of their father. While I haven’t tried looking up Kenyan citizenship law, I would guess that Obama might also qualify for Kenyan citizenship on the basis of his father’s birth. So we could have the interesting situation that both major presidential candidates might be qualified for dual citizenship. [/QUOTE] [Here is the form for requesting an original Kenyan passport (which cannot be issued to someone already abroad).](http://www.kenyaembassy.com/forms/Form_PP1_Feb_07.pdf) Box 2 has the following as means of obtaining citizenship: Birth, Descent, Registration, Naturalization. [Here is a good discussion on the Kenyan citizenship laws.](http://www.apanews.net/apa.php?page=afric_item_eng&id_article=39913) As Obama is over the age of 23, he has forfeited his claim (if any) to Kenyan citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/97 "2008-03-04T17:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] …Although the debate in the US indicates the impossibility that he [McCain] can apply for the position because he was not born in its territory, in Panama it is pointed out that he could be president “without any problem.” [/QUOTE] This is _ **so cool** _. I’ll vote for McCain if he promises to _also_ run for President of Panama. It’d be like James VI of Scotland running for King of England.\* Think of it: instead of invading other countries, we could just have our charismatic dual nationals run for president and, once in both offices, merge the two countries. Or better yet, how about if McCain loses, and then runs for President of Panama and wins? \*Yes, I know that’s a completely specious parallel, and no, I’m not really serious. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/98 "2008-07-11T13:05:53Z")
[A Hint of New Life to a McCain Birth Issue](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/politics/11mccain.html) > [@](#): > > analysis, by Prof. Gabriel J. Chin, focused on a 1937 law that has been largely overlooked in the debate over Mr. McCain’s eligibility to be president. The law conferred citizenship on children of American parents born in the Canal Zone after 1904, and it made John McCain a citizen just before his first birthday. But the law came too late, Professor Chin argued, to make Mr. McCain a natural-born citizen. > > “It’s preposterous that a technicality like this can make a difference in an advanced democracy,” Professor Chin said. “But this is the constitutional text that we have.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/99 "2008-07-11T15:27:09Z")
This is based on what seems to me to be a rather silly nitpick by Chin: > [@](#): > > At the time of Mr. McCain’s birth, the relevant law granted citizenship to any child born to an American parent “out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States.” Professor Chin said the term “limits and jurisdiction” left a crucial gap. The Canal Zone was beyond the limits of the United States but not beyond its jurisdiction, and thus the law did not apply to Mr. McCain. > > In 1937, Congress addressed the problem, enacting a law that granted citizenship to people born in the Canal Zone after 1904. That made Mr. McCain a citizen, but not one who was naturally born, Professor Chin said, because the citizenship was conferred after his birth. > [@](#): > > In an interview on Thursday, Mr. Olson, whose firm represents Mr. McCain in the New Hampshire lawsuit, said Congress could not have intended to leave the gap described by Professor Chin. The 1937 law, Mr. Olson said, was not a fix but a way to clarify what Congress had meant all along. > > Professor Tribe agreed. Reading the “limits and jurisdiction” clause as Professor Chin does, Professor Tribe said, “is to attribute a crazy design to Congress” that “would create an irrational gap.” ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802/100 "2008-07-11T19:28:55Z")
[Here](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1157621)’s the full abstract: > [@](#): > > Senator McCain was born in 1936 in the Canal Zone to U.S. citizen parents. The Canal Zone was territory controlled by the United States, but it was not incorporated into the Union. As requested by Senator McCain’s campaign, distinguished constitutional lawyers Laurence Tribe and Theodore Olson examined the law and issued a detailed opinion offering two reasons that Senator McCain was a natural born citizen. Neither is sound under current law. The Tribe-Olson Opinion suggests that the Canal Zone, then under exclusive U.S. jurisdiction, may have been covered by the Fourteenth Amendment’s grant of citizenship to “all persons born . . . in the United States.” However, in the Insular Cases, the Supreme Court held that “unincorporated territories” were not part of the United States for constitutional purposes. Accordingly, many decisions hold that persons born in unincorporated territories are not Fourteenth Amendment citizens. The Tribe-Olson Opinion also suggests that Senator McCain obtained citizenship by statute. However, the only statute in effect in 1936 did not cover the Canal Zone. Recognizing the gap, in 1937, Congress passed a citizenship law applicable only to the Canal Zone, granting Senator McCain citizenship, but eleven months too late for him to be a citizen at birth. Because Senator John McCain was not a citizen at birth, he is not a “natural born Citizen” and thus is not “eligible to the Office of President” under the Constitution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-john-mccain-meet-the-requirements-to-be-president/435802.md?page=6)