# Does Judaism have elements of a racial and ethnic group or is it just a religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505 "2011-03-13T05:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/41 "2011-03-16T16:02:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Aren’t really Jews … according to whom? According to several posters in this thread and apparently to Orthodox and Conservative schools of Judaism. Have you not read the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/42 "2011-03-16T16:03:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, but they understood ancestry and defined tribal membership in those terms, and “Jewish” membership is still defined in terms of ancestry (which is really just genetics under a different word), and the State of Israel defines Jews in terms of both patrilineal and matrilineal descendency. How is that not a genetic parameter? They defined tribal membership matrilinially. Their reasons for doing so are lost in the mists of time. Over time, such an arbitrary rule becomes its own reason, something Judaism is rife with (see: Kosher). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/43 "2011-03-16T16:04:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > According to several posters in this thread and apparently to Orthodox and Conservative schools of Judaism. Have you not read the thread? It was a rhetorical question. Somethig I would have thought obvious in context. Point being, those are not _all_ Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/44 "2011-03-16T16:06:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Why shouldn’t they? There’s no reason that the state of Israel should have the same definition of Judaism as the Orthodox. Besides, it’s not like people with Jewish fathers and Gentile mothers don’t get persecuted by anti-semites, so they need some place of refuge too. That’s my point. Orthodox/Conservative exclusion of non-matrilineal Jews was being held up as some kind of final authority on the definition of “Jewishness,” and as a proof that it has no genetic/ethnic component. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/45 "2011-03-16T16:41:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > They defined tribal membership matrilinially. Their reasons for doing so are lost in the mists of time. I don’t think the reason for this one is hard to figure out. They could always know for sure who the mother was. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/46 "2011-03-16T16:49:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think the reason for this one is hard to figure out. They could always know for sure who the mother was. Maybe. Or maybe it had something to do with discouraging exogamy, since males are more likely to practice it. Finding purely rational explainations for Jewish rules is an old game - they often _sound_ perfectly reasonable, like the “kosher prevents food poisioning diseases” one. Whether they are true, or simply sophisticated “just-so” stories, is hard to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/47 "2011-03-16T16:55:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > They defined tribal membership matrilinially. Their reasons for doing so are lost in the mists of time. Over time, such an arbitrary rule becomes its own reason, something Judaism is rife with (see: Kosher). Actually, no. Tribal membership is defined in Judaism patrilineally. Whether you’re a Jew or not is defined matrilineally, and Judaism doesn’t become matrilineal until sometime between the 2nd century BC-1st century AD. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s my point. Orthodox/Conservative exclusion of non-matrilineal Jews was being held up as some kind of final authority on the definition of “Jewishness,” and as a proof that it has no genetic/ethnic component. I don’t think anyone is saying that Jewishness doesn’t have any genetic or ethnic component. I think, if anything, your comparison to the Druze and the Mandeans is a good one. All three groups; Jews, Druze, and Mandeans, are religious groups, first and foremost. But they’re all endogamist religious groups that either don’t allow conversion (in the case of the Druze and Mandeans), or discourage it (in the case of the Jews), and so there is an ethnic component and cultural traditions that have developed around it. The thing is, though, I think, and this goes back to the earlier, greater question (about atheist Muslims), that all religions have a cultural component. One of the things you hear about in the United States, for instance, are “Cultural Catholics”. These are people who don’t actively practice Catholicism, and don’t necessarily believe in what the Catholic church teaches, but still follow Catholic traditions; they like the “laughter and good red wine”, as Hillarie Belloc would put it, without the belief in God. And generally, the Catholic church and their family and friends accept those people as Catholics; lapsed Catholics, bad Catholics, but still Catholics. I’m sure it’s the same thing in Islam, that there are “cultural Muslims”, who were raised Muslim, participate in various Muslim traditions and the Muslim culture of the area, but aren’t really deep believers in the Muslim faith. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/48 "2011-03-16T16:58:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Judaism doesn’t become matrilineal until sometime between the 2nd century BC-1st century AD. I did not know that. What’s the source? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/49 "2011-03-16T17:52:24Z")
Ok, maybe someone can address this directly. Is there any branch of Judaism that does not allow conversion to the religion? **Dio** , in regard to a previous question, Israel has a law known as the ‘right of return’, that allows any Jew to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen. That law does not always conform with religious beliefs about what defines a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/50 "2011-03-16T17:55:09Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > We weren’t talking about obligation, though, it was stated that those who have only Jewish fathers are flat out rejected as being any kind of Jew, religious or otherwise. But according to the Orthodox definition of “Jew” there IS no other kind. There may be some who don’t practice the religion, but that doesn’t make them (in our eyes) less obligated to. But that obligation is only inherited through the female line. (Of course, it can be adopted voluntarily by those who are not born obligated, i.e., converts.) Captain Amazing: > [@](#): > > and Judaism doesn’t become matrilineal until sometime between the 2nd century BC-1st century AD. Not true. There are numerous allusions in scripture that point to matrilineality being the rule even in earlier times. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/51 "2011-03-16T17:57:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I did not know that. What’s the source? Check out Shaye Cohen’s “The Beginnings of Jewishness”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/52 "2011-03-16T17:57:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, maybe someone can address this directly. Is there any branch of Judaism that does not allow conversion to the religion? As far as I know, no. Though it is not generally encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/53 "2011-03-16T18:02:09Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > the State of Israel defines Jews in terms of both patrilineal and matrilineal descendency Cite? My understanding has always been that the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel controls matters of personal religious status within Israel. Israel will recognize foreigners as Jews based pretty much on their say-so, even if said status is based on the Reform acceptance off patrilineality outside Israel, but that’s not quite the same as saying that patrilineal descent is recognized as a definition of Jewishness by the state of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/54 "2011-03-16T18:08:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, maybe someone can address this directly. Is there any branch of Judaism that does not allow conversion to the religion? It’s rare, but aparently there is at least [one group](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/magazine/14syrians-t.html?_r=4&ref=magazine&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) that refuses to accept converts. > [@](#): > > **Dio** , in regard to a previous question, Israel has a law known as the ‘right of return’, that allows any Jew to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen. That law does not always conform with religious beliefs about what defines a Jew. Correct. So citing Orthodox beliefs to define who is “Jewish” is not meaningful. That’s exactly my point. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/55 "2011-03-16T18:11:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Check out Shaye Cohen’s “The Beginnings of Jewishness”. Seems to me it isn’t so clear. I have not of course read this book, but there is a reference to it on the wiki site as follows: > [@](#): > > In the Torah, the sons of Moses, Gershom and Eliezer, by his wife Zipporah daughter of the Midianite priest Jethro, are Jews. Within the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), The Book of Ruth relates the story of a Gentile woman married to a Jewish man, whose children are considered Jewish. > > Professor Shaye J.D. Cohen of Harvard University states: > > “Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must “convert” to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert.” > > In contrast, the Book of Ezra relates that the prophet Ezra, a Jewish priestly scribe, commanded his Jewish followers amidst the Babylonian Captivity (c. 459 BCE) to divorce their foreign wives, and this sometimes has been regarded as the foundation of the present rule. According to the Bible, Ezra resolved the identity threat which arose by the intermarriage between Jews and foreigners and provided a definite reading of the Torah. The argument appears to boil down to one of Biblical interpretation. It is true that Israelite monarchs often married foreign princesses. I would be wary of extrapolating from that whether Judaism at the time was matrilinial or not - the “rules” applicable to legendary figures and princes may not be the same as those that apply to ordinary persons - princes practice exogamy (marrying outside the group) for reasons of state, whereas exogamy tends to be discouraged for ordinary Jews - as in Ezra. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/56 "2011-03-16T18:21:39Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Diogenes: > > Cite? My understanding has always been that the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel controls matters of personal religious status within Israel. Israel will recognize foreigners as Jews based pretty much on their say-so, even if said status is based on the Reform acceptance off patrilineality outside Israel, but that’s not quite the same as saying that patrilineal descent is recognized as a definition of Jewishness by the state of Israel. The Law of Return basically defines a Jew entitled to Right of Return (under a 1970 Amendment) as anyone who would have been persecuted under the Nuremburg laws. The Law of Return does not conform to _Halakhic_ law because Israel is ostensibly suppoosed to serve as a safe haven for Jews, and those persecuting Jews don’t care about _Halakha_. > **[Law of Return](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#The_Jewish_Ancestry_Amendment)** > > The Law of Return (Hebrew: חוק השבות, ḥok ha-shvūt) is an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews, people with one or more Jewish grandparent, and their spouses the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship. Section 1 of the Law of Return declares that "every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh \[immigrant\]". In the Law of Return, the State of Israel gave effect to the Zionist movement's aim for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In 19 O... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/57 "2011-03-16T18:24:42Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Not true. There are numerous allusions in scripture that point to matrilineality being the rule even in earlier times. Where? Ezra? Biblical genealogies are all father to son, the son of a Kohen or Levite is a Kohen or a Levite even if his mother wasn’t the daughter of a Kohen or Levite, in Numbers 1:18, we’re told that the Israelites were “registered by the clans of their fathers’ houses”, and Moses, Joseph, and Judah all married non-Jews, and there’s no doubt of the Jewishness of their children. Matrilineality is a Talmudic thing. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/58 "2011-03-16T18:29:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me it isn’t so clear. I have not of course read this book, but there is a reference to it on the wiki site as follows: This is why I’d recommend the book and not the Wikipedia article. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/59 "2011-03-16T18:29:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Where? Ezra? Biblical genealogies are all father to son, the son of a Kohen or Levite is a Kohen or a Levite even if his mother wasn’t the daughter of a Kohen or Levite, in Numbers 1:18, we’re told that the Israelites were “registered by the clans of their fathers’ houses”, and Moses, Joseph, and Judah all married non-Jews, and there’s no doubt of the Jewishness of their children. > > Matrilineality is a Talmudic thing. The argument is that clan affiliation was seperate from matrilinial discent - much in the same way as a person may trace their basic ethnicity matrilinially, but their family mane patrilinially. Another origin theory is found in Deuteronomy and Leviticus as follows: > [@](#): > > The Torah does not always state every law explicitly. In the case of Matrilineal Descent, the practice is derived from Deuteronomy 7: 4, “Because he will lead astray your son from before Me” To understand this verse, look at the preceding verse, which states: “And you shall not intermarry with them, your daughter you shall not give to his son and his daughter you shall not take for your son”. Verse 4 should have stated “Because SHE will lead astray your son”, for the non-Jewish girl that your son married (‘your’ meaning Jewish) should be the one that would lead your son astray. So who is the ‘HE’? It might be the girl’s father, but in general, women leave their father’s house and live in their husband’s house; they would then not be living with her father. Hence, it would not make sense for the girl’s father to lead “your son” astray if your son doesn’t live with him. > > The Rabbis concluded that ‘HE’ is the man that your daughter married, and ‘your son’ mentioned in verse 4 is your grandchild, meaning Jewish grandchild. Thus, verse 4 is referring back to the middle section of verse 3. It reads like this, “your daughter you shall not give to his son because he will lead astray your son” This shows that the child of a Jewish girl and a non-Jewish boy will be Jewish. > > It is not uncommon for the Torah to refer to a grandchild as an actual child. For instance, Kings I 15: 11 states, " And Asa did that which was correct in the eyes of God just like David his father". David was not Asa’s father. He was his great-great-grandfather. > > Additionally, Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being “among the community of Israel” (ie, a Jew). On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews. [http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/10-11.html](http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/10-11.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/60 "2011-03-16T18:29:55Z")
Orthodoxy believes the Talmud is based on Oral Law, which is equal to, and as old as the Torah. That’s obviously a faith position, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505.md?page=4)