# Does Judaism have elements of a racial and ethnic group or is it just a religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505 "2011-03-13T05:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/61 "2011-03-16T18:31:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > This is why I’d recommend the book and not the Wikipedia article. I’d love to read it. Looks very interesting. However, announcing a theory is contained in a book basically ends the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/62 "2011-03-16T18:32:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The argument is that clan affiliation was seperate from matrilinial discent - much in the same way as a person may trace their basic ethnicity matrilinially, but their family mane patrilinially. > > Another origin theory is found in Deuteronomy and Leviticus as follows: > > [http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/10-11.html](http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/10-11.html) this whole thing looks like _post-hoc_ eisogesis to me. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/63 "2011-03-16T18:32:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Law of Return basically defines a Jew entitled to Right of Return (under a 1970 Amendment) as anyone who would have been persecuted under the Nuremburg laws. The Law of Return does not conform to _Halakhic_ law because Israel is ostensibly suppoosed to serve as a safe haven for Jews, and those persecuting Jews don’t care about _Halakha_. > > [Law of Return - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#The_Jewish_Ancestry_Amendment) True; but while Israel will grant descedants and relatives of Jews citizenship, neither it nor most Jews consider them Jewish. That’s why Israel’s largest Christian community is, I believe, Russian Orthodox - a result of the 1990’s wave of immigration from the CIS. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/64 "2011-03-16T18:34:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > this whole thing looks like _post-hoc_ eisogesis to me. I don’t think either side is particularly convincing. My original position was that the origin was “lost in the mists of time” and thus that we lack sufficient evidence of the pre-rabinnical position. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/65 "2011-03-16T18:34:44Z")
> [@Allesan](#): > > True; but while Israel will grant descedants and relatives of Jews citizenship, neither it nor most Jews consider them Jewish. Cite that “most Jews” don’t consider them Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/66 "2011-03-16T18:40:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite that “most Jews” don’t consider them Jewish? Is the word of an Israeli who actually lives here and knows many of them not enough? Besides, very few of them consider themselves Jewish - hence all the churches. In fact, after 70 years of Communism, many of the Halachically Jewish immigrants didn’t really think of themselves as Jews before they came here. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/67 "2011-03-16T18:41:57Z")
Incidentally - I’m posting from my iphone (busy playing soldier this week) so cites are kind of out of the question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/68 "2011-03-16T18:44:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Is the word of an Israeli who actually lives here and knows many of them not enough? No, because “most Jews” do not live in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/69 "2011-03-16T18:48:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, because “most Jews” do not live in Israel. More than anywhere else. Foreign Jews are a bit of an enigma to me. But fine - correct my quote to “most Jews in Israel”. Happy? (That’s a rhetorical question, obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/70 "2011-03-16T18:59:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That was true 2000 years ago maybe. Not anymore. Ever heard of paternity testing? Whatever those Orthodox rabbis want to believe, the son of a Jewish father has genetic Jewish heritage. They can’t just wave that away. I wonder if those rabbis think that Hitler would have cared about the difference. They don’t view it the way you do. Obviously, I think they’re wrong because as far as I’m concerned anyone who honestly considers himself a Jew is a Jew, but you’re using your modern concept of an ethnic group(which only came about in the late 19th Century) to make determinations regarding a culture that’s several thousand years old. Moreover, they’re hardly the only ones who “wave that away.” Wesley Clark and Oliver Stone don’t consider themselves Jews even though they’re fathers were Jewish. For that matter, were I to claim that the Washington Post was “owned by a Jew” because the current owner, who’s a practicing Episcopalian and the child of two practicing Episcopalians was a Jew because one of his grandparents was Jewish, most people would find that not only absurd, but might think there was an anti-Semitic reason for believing that. It should be noted since we’re referring to the Government of Israel’s rules on who is and isn’t a Jew, they also specifically exclude people who practice “religions other than Judaism” and they have stripped some Olim of their citizenship and expelled them from the country. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/71 "2011-03-16T19:01:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite that “most Jews” don’t consider them Jewish? Most American Jews certainly don’t consider practicing Christians who had Jewish ancestors, such as Wesley Clark or Caspar Weinberger, to be Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/72 "2011-03-16T19:03:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Most American Jews certainly don’t consider practicing Christians who had Jewish ancestors, such as Wesley Clark or Caspar Weinberger, to be Jews. Once they change religions, it’s true that most of Jewry considers people to no longer be Jewish, that’s true, but you’re adding a condition there. It’s not the same as saying that most Jews consider somebody with only a Jewish father _per se_ not to be Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/73 "2011-03-16T19:07:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Jews are neither a religion, race or ethnic group; we’re an “Ahm”, which roughly translates to “people”. If that doesn’t fit your modern definitions, tough. We came first. Agreed. Muslims feel the same. What’s ironic in all the fighting back and forth is that you’ll notice that just as there is no hard and fast rule on the difference between a language and a dialect, there’s no real hard and fast rule to determine what groups are and aren’t “ethnic groups.” Frankly, lots of the groups that Dio happily classifies as “ethnic groups” wouldn’t be considered such by the inventors of the concept of nationality because they thought that a “nation” needed it’s own unique language so they wouldn’t recognize Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Palestinians, Serbs, Croats, and various other groups who don’t have a unique language of their own(with the caveat that Serbs and Croats while they have the same language use different alphabets). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/74 "2011-03-16T19:11:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. Muslims feel the same. What is the definition of a “Muslim?” Name one single common identifier for “Muslims” outside of religion. What does an atheist Indonesian son of a Muslim have in common with a Kurdish atheist son of a Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/75 "2011-03-16T19:18:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That was true 2000 years ago maybe. Not anymore. Ever heard of paternity testing? Whatever those Orthodox rabbis want to believe, the son of a Jewish father has genetic Jewish heritage. They can’t just wave that away. I wonder if those rabbis think that Hitler would have cared about the difference. I don’t know why you’re getting so worked up about this, Dio. And, I should point out, it’s not only the Orthodox. Reform Jews will only consider a child with one Jewish parent as Jewish if the child was brought up with a Jewish upbringing. However, a child of a mixed marriage not brought up as a Jew will not be recognized by Reform Jews as a Jew either, despite the “genetic Jewish heritage” that you seem to be rallying around. The simple fact is that Jews have always defined who is a Jew. Whether it be Orthodox Jews or Reform Jews or any other Jews, there are rules to be applied in making these determinations… and the rules aren’t strictly genetic. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/76 "2011-03-16T19:19:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Once they change religions, it’s true that most of Jewry considers people to no longer be Jewish, that’s true, but you’re adding a condition there. It’s not the same as saying that most Jews consider somebody with only a Jewish father _per se_ not to be Jewish. Huh, it was never in dispute that most Jews consider people with one Jewish parent to be a Jew if that person considers himself to be Jewish. Yes, Orthodox Jews don’t consider people without Jewish mothers to be Jewish, but they’re not the majority. Furthermore, consider the intermarriage rates amongst Jewish Americans it’s possible that self-identified Jews with just one Jewish parent will soon outnumber self-identified Jews with two parents. What I was responding to was your saying that Alessan was wrong to suggest that practicing Christians of Jewish descent aren’t viewed as Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/77 "2011-03-16T19:19:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’d love to read it. Looks very interesting. > > However, announcing a theory is contained in a book basically ends the conversation. I’m sorry, but you asked for a cite, and I gave you the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/78 "2011-03-16T19:22:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh, it was never in dispute that most Jews consider people with one Jewish parent to be a Jew if that person considers himself to be Jewish. All right, then we agree. > [@](#): > > What I was responding to was your saying that Alessan was wrong to suggest that practicing Christians of Jewish descent aren’t viewed as Jews. I never said anything about practicing Christians. I said Israel recognizes children of Jewish fathers and grandfathers to be Jews. That such recognition is rescinded if they convert to another religion goes without saying. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/79 "2011-03-16T19:27:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is the definition of a “Muslim?” Name one single common identifier for “Muslims” outside of religion. The definition you chose for an ethnic group was of a group that had a shared, common heritage which describes Muslims. Demanding one somehow separate Islam from “Muslim culture” is like making the same demands of Jews, Mandaeans, or the Druze. Anyway if the Muslim concept of ourselves as a nation doesn’t jibe with your concept, tough. As Alessan said, we came first. > [@](#): > > What does an atheist Indonesian son of a Muslim have in common with a Kurdish atheist son of a Muslim? Several things. Amongst others they are both viewed as Muslims, are viewed as part of the Ummah, and if they announce they no longer consider themselves to be Muslims they are taking their lives into their hands(though the Indonesian won’t be in quite as much danger as the Kurd). Certainly they have as much in common as an American Jew in Georgia and an Ethiopian Jew living in Tel Aviv. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505/80 "2011-03-16T19:32:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I never said anything about practicing Christians. I said Israel recognizes children of Jewish fathers and grandfathers to be Jews. That such recognition is rescinded if they convert to another religion goes without saying. Alessan was clearly referring to Russian “Jews” who are actually practicing Christians. As for your last sentence, I think its only within the last few decades that Israel added that the amendment was put in place and while it has been enforced on some American “Jews for Jesus” and some Ethiopian Jews(Falashas) who were practicing Christians, I don’t think it’s really enforced on the Russians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-have-elements-of-a-racial-and-ethnic-group-or-is-it-just-a-religion/574505.md?page=5)