# Does Judaism require a belief in God \[Split from earlier thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209 "2011-09-05T00:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/181 "2011-09-07T22:00:18Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > I don’t understand the brisket reference? Do you think it makes up for not eating bacon, or what? Hamster is the gentile atheist of the couple and is proud that his (I assume … King) ethnic Jewish cooking rocks. What’s not to get? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/182 "2011-09-07T22:06:48Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Does your family’s atheism involve a belief in the gods and their laws? If it’s a good rule, does it matter if it comes from God or not? Passover is a nice meal combined with a good story. Isn’t that enough reason to observe it? Do you need to believe in Santa Claus to put up a Christmas tree? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/183 "2011-09-07T22:07:59Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > The Hamster King seems pretty keen that the readers of this forum recognise that his family are atheists though. I like to represent. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/184 "2011-09-07T23:18:43Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Does Judaism require a belief in a god? > > Don’t know, don’t care. However, given some of the discussion in this thread, it’s worth observing that atheism does require the absence of any belief in gods and consequently a rejection of any sacred laws. So, to pass as a Jewish atheist it is not enough to persuade the Jews that you meet their rules. You also have to persuade mainstream atheists that you have rejected the Jewish gods. Otherwise, you’re a Jew, not an atheist. I fear some of you don’t get that, and may suffer a disheartening rejection if you meet any proper atheists. > > Yeah, and the same goes for any self-proclaimed ‘Buddhist atheists’. Give me Judaism over ‘proper atheism’ any day. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/185 "2011-09-07T23:23:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What’s (apparently) tricky is understanding that “What do I need to do to be accepted by the Jewish community” is not necessarily the same question as “What does Judaism require of its adherents” Ask the guy who’s mom named him Judaism. There is no universal opinion about God in Judaism and if you took an up and down vote amongst 13 million, they majority would side with us. But this is a wonderful and pluralistic way of life we belong to, so the minority opinion does not automatically invalidate the rest. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/186 "2011-09-08T00:14:02Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > the Jewish gods Am I the only one who thinks that bits like this show why trying to debate the issue with people who don’t understand the basics is a bit like spitting into the wind? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/187 "2011-09-08T00:27:45Z")
And yet we keep talking… ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/188 "2011-09-08T00:49:23Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Apparently many people in this thread _are_ passionate in their desire to be acknowledged as atheists. Isn’t that the whole point of the thread? It seems pretty clear they are accepted as Jews. No, if you follow things back to how this started, that isn’t the point of the thread. The point is that if you are discussing Judaism it is important to understand the Jewish world view and that the Jewish approach to religion is radically different from the gentile’s. Belief is a non issue. It isn’t the point, and looking at Judaism through the lense of a Christian style “faith above everything” philosophy will give you the wrong impression. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/189 "2011-09-08T01:23:00Z")
This has been a really educational thread (at least for this lurker), but I have one quick question regarding belief in other gods (the atheism angle has been proven rather thoroughly, I think). I’m trying to phrase this non-stupidly, but I freely admit that my background is largely the 4 pages of this thread. In other words, apologies in advance for any offense or mistaken impressions. Christians believe in a single God, as do Muslims, so they’re out of the tribe because they believe in another tribe’s dude. No kow-towing to another tribe’s magic-sky-chief allowed. I got that part. Makes total sense. Shinto/Buddhist are usually in because those are more philosophy and don’t include specific deities which require allegiance. That makes sense also. What about people who are animists or totemists? Animists are basically the “everything (including inanimate/unliving objects) has a spirit or is a portion of the universal spirit” version, where totemists are more the “everything has a spirit/is part of a spirit and this one kind (tree, bear, sloth) is my particular kinfolk” version. Where would something like that fall? With the slow growing of Pagan-style belief systems, does something like that even ever come up? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/190 "2011-09-08T01:32:40Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > J > > I think Brazil’s point is extremely relevant, Thanks, and for what it’s worth I think that certain people could have been a bit more civil with you. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/191 "2011-09-08T01:39:47Z")
I’m sure the totomists could jive well with Judaism. I mean, we have a custom where we cover the challah (bread) and the (for children) reasoning is ‘so the bread doesn’t feel bad it is the last one to get a blessing’. Absolutely nothing is ignored. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/192 "2011-09-08T01:42:00Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > There is no universal opinion about God in Judaism Ok, so if I understand you correctly you are saying there is no consensus view about whether Judaism commands its adherents to believe in G-d. Right? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/193 "2011-09-08T01:49:18Z")
This is where this thread began. With a claim that it is easy to be an atheist within a Jewish context, and a claim by someone who is not Jewish that such is not true. > [@brocks](#): > > > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > > > Many people are surprised how easy a fit atheism and Judaism really is > > … I think you are misleading people when you state or imply that belief in God is not a crucial aspect of the Jewish religion. No, not with someone’s passion to be acknowledged as an atheist. And in short **brocks** was very wrong and **IvoryTowerDenizen** very right. As to **Lasciel** ’s question … I’m with **CitizenPained** and would _guess_ that so long as those spirits are not worshipped or imbued with powers reminiscent of gods that the concept of non-human creatures having souls would be kosher, so to speak. Although I am not sure that anyone takes the bread bit, or for that matter “the Sabbath Bride” (the Sabbath being a bride) as literal, like animists do regarding the spirit of trees, etc. **brazil84** , really? You really don’t feel the answer has been given by now? Really what is your point by now? What is it that you want to understand that has not been already explained ad nauseum? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/194 "2011-09-08T02:10:23Z")
My understanding of animism and totemism would jibe with the other folks’ as well. Jewish tradition, after all, is full of myths about dibuks and golems and such, and kaballah is fairly heady mystic stuff, so I don’t see that belief in other hippy-dippy type things would necessarily be a bar to membership in the religious community. Odd looks, perhaps, but not expulsion. Paganism, depending on what you mean, probably would be. At the point where you start worshiping another pantheon of Gods or claiming that the moon has divine powers, or what have you, you’ve most likely left the fold. Then again, as paganism is fairly new, idiosyncratic and malleable, I’d hestitate to offer any blanket statement about what paganism ‘is’ let alone how all Jews would react to it. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/195 "2011-09-08T02:13:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > My understanding of animism and totemism would jibe with the other folks’ as well. Jewish tradition, after all, is full of myths about dibuks and golems and such, and kaballah is fairly heady mystic stuff, so I don’t see that belief in other hippy-dippy type things would necessarily be a bar to membership in the religious community. Odd looks, perhaps, but not expulsion. > > Paganism, depending on what you mean, probably would be. At the point where you start worshiping another pantheon of Gods or claiming that the moon has divine powers, or what have you, you’ve most likely left the fold. Then again, as paganism is fairly new, idiosyncratic and malleable, I’d hestitate to offer any blanket statement about what paganism ‘is’ let alone how all Jews would react to it. Thanks very much to all three of you - that’s very interesting to learn. (back to lurking!) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/196 "2011-09-08T02:13:34Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **brazil84** , really? You really don’t feel the answer has been given by now? I’m not sure what you mean by this question, but there have been a lot of unclear statements in this thread. And there have been posts which implied that there is a consensus view. > [@](#): > > Really what is your point by now? What is it that you want to understand that has not been already explained ad nauseum? For one thing, I’m not entirely sure what **Citizenpained** meant with the statement that “there is no universal opinion about God” – does it mean opinion about whether belief is commanded? Or opinion about existence itself? Probably my interpretation is correct, but how hard would it be to just say “Yes, you understand me correctly.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/197 "2011-09-08T03:01:50Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > Thanks very much to all three of you - that’s very interesting to learn. No prob. It’s good when the Dope can be about fighting ignorance, not dealing with The Fighting Ignorants. > [@DSeid](#): > > **brazil84** , really? Come on DS, do you have to ask? The next round will, most likely, be asking for an “authority” to back up any answer that’s given. Then we rinse and repeat. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/198 "2011-09-08T03:07:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by this question, but … The answers have been given and given and given. At some point those of us who having trying to explain the place of God belief within the range of modern Jewish thinking have to just give it up. We apparently cannot say it in a way that you can or will comprehend it. End. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/199 "2011-09-08T08:58:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ok, so if I understand you correctly you are saying there is no consensus view about whether Judaism commands its adherents to believe in G-d. > > Right? Right. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/200 "2011-09-08T09:01:36Z")
There’s an essay on Jewish pagan (or something similar - Wiccan maybe?) practice in the 2001 Jewish feminist anthology [Yentl’s Revenge](http://danyaruttenberg.net/books/yentls-revenge/), but I haven’t read it since it came out so I can’t remember it very well. /unhelpful [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=11)