# Does Judaism require a belief in God \[Split from earlier thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209 "2011-09-05T00:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/221 "2011-09-08T11:51:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > But either way, he is clearly implying that there is a consensus by either definition. No, just the bottom-up one. ---
**Author:** ![blanketman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blanketman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanketman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/222 "2011-09-08T11:56:28Z")
The belief in g-d, thee one g-d and no other is one of the 13 basic tenants of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/223 "2011-09-08T11:56:34Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > No, just the bottom-up one. And that is in direct contradiction to your response in post number 199, agreed? ---
**Author:** ![blanketman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blanketman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanketman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/224 "2011-09-08T12:17:40Z")
To all concerned, first and foremost. if you are born jewish you die jewish(jewish mother,lineage is determined by the mother not the farther.)) No matter what you do in-between these 2 events. Even if you convert to another religion you are still jewish even though you think your not and your punishment or reward is determined about what you do with your life. 1 of the 13 basic principles of judaism is the belief in 1 g-d and no other. worshipping other g-ds is considered Idol worship. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/225 "2011-09-08T12:39:41Z")
Punishment or reward? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/226 "2011-09-08T12:43:13Z")
> [@blanketman](#): > > The belief in g-d, thee one g-d and no other is one of the 13 basic tenants of Judaism. No, it’s not. Judaism does not “basic tenets”. You’re talking about Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith, which are all well and good, but hardly are a ‘tenet’ held by Judaism as a whole. In certain congregations you can, for instance, go your whole life without hearing about Rambam, let alone his 13 Principles. Let alone being told that you must accept them as guiding rules. > [@blanketman](#): > > To all concerned, first and foremost. if you are born jewish you die jewish(jewish mother,lineage is determined by the mother not the farther.)) No matter what you do in-between these 2 events. Also not true. Many Jews would consider someone who converts to Christianity, becomes an ordained minister and dies praying to Jesus Christ to have left the tribe forever and irrevocably. That’s most likely the majority position, in fact, and the Israeli position on who’s a Jew (while not determinative) supports that view as well. There are most likely very few Jews who would consider a life-long protestant minister to be a Jew. > [@blanketman](#): > > your punishment or reward Bwah? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/227 "2011-09-08T12:45:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > When I talk about “consensus,” that’s what I mean. Channelling Humpty Dumpty I believe. > [@Lewis Carrrol](#): > > ‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said. > Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”’ > ‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”,’ Alice objected. > ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ > ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ > ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’ > Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. ‘They’ve a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they’re the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!’ > ‘Would you tell me please,’ said Alice, ‘what that means?’ > ‘Now you talk like a reasonable child,’ said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. ‘I meant by “impenetrability” that we’ve had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you’d mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don’t mean to stop here all the rest of your life.’ > ‘That’s a great deal to make one word mean,’ Alice said in a thoughtful tone. > ‘When I make a word do a lot of work like that,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘I always pay it extra.’ > ‘Oh!’ said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other remark. Yes, sometimes conversations are most “unsatisfactory”. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/228 "2011-09-08T13:07:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > And that is in direct contradiction to your response in post number 199, agreed? No? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/229 "2011-09-08T13:15:59Z")
Okay, I’ll try one more time. There are multiple different Jewish movements and within those movements there are different opinions. None of these movements have anything like a pope that decides from the chair. A consensus on anything that includes thoughts from the ultra-Orthodox to Reform to Conservative to Reconstructionist will be rare. Even agreeing on who is “respected and prominent” is pretty unlikely. Across the board however, all groups, this much can be said. Big deal - no other gods. Big deal - what matters otherwise is much more what you do not what you believe; do the right thing whether you think you will be rewarded or punished or not, because it is the right thing and needs no other reason to do it. (Yes, we will disagree on which actions are the most important right things, but we all agree on that principal.) As to a consensus on whether or not Jews are commanded to believe in God - limit to the Orthodox and you’d probably find a majority opinion that we are with a sizable number who do not. You’ll also find a good number who take much more of the Torah as literal truth than do the rest of us. The rest of tend to read more of the Torah as myths than history and find the greater truths in the meanings of the myths. Among the rest of us authorities you’ll find a majority consensus that atheism is acceptable and among those who read the text as commanding belief very few who believe that following that command is a big deal one. If that is not clear to you then so be it. (I think I hear a crash now.) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/230 "2011-09-08T15:18:31Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > No? Well in that case your explanation makes no sense at all. In post number 199, you confirmed that in your view, there is no consensus view about whether Judaism commands its adherents to believe in G-d. You later clarified that this is “bottom-up consensus.” On the other hand, **Finnegan** asserted the following: > [@](#): > > Judaism is not a religion that’s about belief, it’s a religion about actions And you said that this also represents “bottom up consensus.” If Judaism is not a religion that’s about belief, and this is the “bottom-up consensus,” then it follows that the “bottom-up consensus” is that belief in G-d is not commanded. And yet you claim there is no “bottom-up consensus.” And that’s a contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![blanketman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blanketman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanketman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/231 "2011-09-08T15:21:21Z")
hi, jews expelled from arab lands after the war of independence were always identified as jews but had the country of origin in front i.e… syrian jews, lebanese jews, iraqi jews. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/232 "2011-09-08T15:41:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay, I’ll try one more time. > > There are multiple different Jewish movements and within those movements there are different opinions. None of these movements have anything like a pope that decides from the chair. A consensus on anything that includes thoughts from the ultra-Orthodox to Reform to Conservative to Reconstructionist will be rare. Even agreeing on who is “respected and prominent” is pretty unlikely. > > Across the board however, all groups, this much can be said. Big deal - no other gods. Big deal - what matters otherwise is much more what you do not what you believe; do the right thing whether you think you will be rewarded or punished or not, because it is the right thing and needs no other reason to do it. (Yes, we will disagree on which actions are the most important right things, but we all agree on that principal.) > > As to a consensus on whether or not Jews are commanded to believe in God - limit to the Orthodox and you’d probably find a majority opinion that we are with a sizable number who do not. You’ll also find a good number who take much more of the Torah as literal truth than do the rest of us. The rest of tend to read more of the Torah as myths than history and find the greater truths in the meanings of the myths. Among the rest of us authorities you’ll find a majority consensus that atheism is acceptable and among those who read the text as commanding belief very few who believe that following that command is a big deal one. > > If that is not clear to you then so be it. (I think I hear a crash now.) That’s reasonably clear to me, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/233 "2011-09-08T15:51:05Z")
> [@blanketman](#): > > hi, jews expelled from arab lands after the war of independence were always identified as jews but had the country of origin in front i.e.. syrian jews, lebanese jews, iraqi jews. Crabs are arthropods. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/234 "2011-09-08T16:04:57Z")
I think I’ve hit my limit. Thanks guys - I hope it was reasonably helpful for some people, at least! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/235 "2011-09-08T16:14:27Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I think I’ve hit my limit. Thanks guys - I hope it was reasonably helpful for some people, at least! At least you got responded to… _pouts_ 🙂 FWIW, I found your posts very enlightening! ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/236 "2011-09-08T16:21:40Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I think I’ve hit my limit. Thanks guys - I hope it was reasonably helpful for some people, at least! It was - even for some of us Jews. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/237 "2011-09-08T23:53:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay, I’ll try one more time 117th time’s the charm. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/238 "2011-09-09T08:29:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > 117th time’s the charm. You do realize that **Dseid** ’s position contradicts yours, don’t you? I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/239 "2011-09-09T09:00:48Z")
I have trouble “realizing” things that other people have imagined. I admit, not being able to realize things that are not real is one of my failings. Of course, back in reality, there’s no contradiction at all between what I’ve repeatedly said and what DS reiterated. But as you’ve thoroughly misrepresented and/or misunderstood my position from the word go, when you claimed I was trying to speak for “all Jews”, I don’t expect you to grok. Then again, as you still haven’t actually provided a cite for your beliefs, or done more than make tacit claims which you refuse to make explicit, your continual sniping from the sidelines isn’t particularly valuable. As you were still asking for “authorities” deep, deep into the thread, your understanding of the basics of the topic are obviously lacking and prevent you from correctly understanding a nuanced argument let alone spotting contradictions within or between them. But you can feel free to imagine contradictions if you see fit. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/240 "2011-09-09T09:55:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I have trouble “realizing” things that other people have imagined. Yes, it was just my imagination that you posted this: > [@](#): > > It’s perfectly clear what more conservative elements hold. Judaism is not a religion that’s about belief, it’s a religion about actions Even **SecondJudith** admitted that you were asserting the existence of a (“bottom-up”) consensus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=13)