# Does Judaism require a belief in God \[Split from earlier thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209 "2011-09-05T00:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/261 "2011-09-10T00:23:28Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Left to right! > > I think the crux of what we’ve been saying is this: > > “We all agree that Jews are allowed to disagree with each other. Unless, of course, you are a ‘Jew for Jesus’ which invalidates your vote entirely.” > > 😃 No- I mean increasing number of candles or decreasing number of candles each night. Hillel vs Shammai. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/262 "2011-09-10T03:54:01Z")
I thought that was settled a few thousand years ago! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/263 "2011-09-10T09:25:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes. So according to you, generally speaking the more conservative elements in Judaism hold that Judaism does not command its adherents to believe in G-d, just like the more liberal elements. Right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/264 "2011-09-10T10:39:16Z")
It is certainly useful, when one cannot argue an actual position and claims to hold no views of one’s own, if their goalposts are on wheels. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/265 "2011-09-10T11:31:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I thought that was settled a few thousand years ago! 😃 Settled, schmettled. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/266 "2011-09-10T11:38:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So according to you, generally speaking the more conservative elements in Judaism hold that Judaism does not command its adherents to believe in G-d, just like the more liberal elements. Right? Are you aware that Conservative Judaism is the name of a branch of Judaism and doesn’t mean conservative in the socio-political way we use it? This movement was born as a response to the Reform movement which, in the turn of the 1900s, was a dramatic rethinking of Jewish practice and change from the orthodoxy. The conservative movement simply thought the Reform movement eliminated too much ritual etc and wanted to conserve some rituals etc, but still not return to the Orthodoxy. (I simplify, of course. I’m sure there’s a wiki page on it). I suspect that when you refer to “conservative elements” you mean something different than we do. You might be picturing something more akin to the orthodoxy, which indeed are more likely to be bible literalist and stricter adherents to original laws and belief systems. Reconstructionist movement is a branch of Conservative movement which explicity (by it’s leadership and guidelines) recognizes atheism and focuses on ethical Judaism. However many are theists, many not, yet it is also conservative. Perhaps traditionalist is a better word than conservative for your purposes. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/267 "2011-09-10T11:40:00Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Are you aware that Conservative Judaism is the name of a branch of Judaism Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/268 "2011-09-10T11:43:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Absolutely. Then do you mean Conservative or conservative? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/269 "2011-09-10T11:51:43Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Then do you mean Conservative or conservative? Just like I wrote, conservative with a small c. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/270 "2011-09-10T11:59:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Just like I wrote, conservative with a small c. You can understand how that can muddle the waters given some peoples confusion over the term Conservative. Wnen you mean conservative I assume then you don’t mean socially/politically conservative vs liberal. I will assume you mean someone who has a stricter adherence to Jewish practices (like the orthodoxy) and the term liberal Jews mean ones that have a less traditional point of view. This differs from the Conservative Jews many of have been talking about. I disagree with conservative vs liberal terms, I think it imports a connotation that doesn’t exist, but I can go with it. So, yes, more orthodox (“conservative”) individuals certainly believe in that commandment. I know that our current Rabbi, who I described in my first actual post to this thread, would be thrilled if my family came to believe in G-d. I’m positive he thinks we’re wrong. We also don’t keep the sabbath or keep kosher. He wasn’t happy we had an offsite party for the Bat Mitzvah with dancing (on shabbat, not in general) and everyone having to drive. While he believes those things (and he is socially liberal but a traditional Jew in ritual and practice) he also recognizes the right and validity of our point of view. He also believes that traditional Jews that prohibit women from reading Torah are themselves wrong and we are right. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/271 "2011-09-10T12:23:29Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You can understand how that can muddle the waters given some peoples confusion over the term Conservative. Not really. If you look at posts number 70, 71, and 72, it’s pretty clear from the context that I was not talking about “Conservative Judaism.” > [@](#): > > I will assume you mean someone who has a stricter adherence to Jewish practices (like the orthodoxy) and the term liberal Jews mean ones that have a less traditional point of view. Yes that’s basically what I mean. For example, I would characterize Reform Jews as being among the more liberal elements and the groups in Kiryas Joel and New Square as being among the more conservative elements. > [@](#): > > So, yes, more orthodox (“conservative”) individuals certainly believe in that commandment. I don’t dispute that, but note that it seems to be different from what **Finnagain** was saying. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/272 "2011-09-10T12:41:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Not really. If you look at posts number 70, 71, and 72, it’s pretty clear from the context that I was not talking about “Conservative Judaism.” > > Yes that’s basically what I mean. For example, I would characterize Reform Jews as being among the more liberal elements and the groups in Kiryas Joel and New Square as being among the more conservative elements. > > I don’t dispute that, but note that it seems to be different from what **Finnagain** was saying. Sorry, it wasn’t clear to me. Conservative vs liberal terms have little meaning, to me, in this discussion as we rarely describe Jews that way (vis-a-vis ritual and practice. Socially, sure). Being an atheist, or accepting atheism, is not something I would attribute to being more liberal. It’s just less traditional (as in similar to the Orthodoxy. There is actually a long tradition of atheism). I disagree that FinnAgain was saying something different than what I said. We are all echoing the same sentiment, perhaps using different terms or to different degrees. I would also disagree that Reform Jews are among the most ‘liberal’ (in adherence to beliefs), even as a group. I would put that in the lap of the Reconstructionists. Their “motto” (if you will) is that “Tradition gets a vote, not a veto” when making decisions about ritual and law. Outwardly, they can appear the most traditional looking, even frum, and yet easily accept ideas that are not explicitly traditional. I don’t see this contradiction in his posts that you seem to be seeing. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/273 "2011-09-10T12:53:27Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I don’t see this contradiction in his posts that you seem to be seeing. Probably that’s because you aren’t reading carefully. For example, I said that Reform Jews were “among the more liberal elements.” You changed the word “more” to “most” and responded that you disagreed. I assume this is because you simply aren’t reading carefully. Similarly, if you had been reading carefully it would have been obvious that when I referred to “the more conservative elements” I was not referring to “Conservative Jews.” And if you look back, it’s pretty clear that **Finnagain** was insisting that (generally speaking) the more conservative elements in Judaism hold that Judaism does not command its adherents to believe in G-d, apparently just like the more liberal elements. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/274 "2011-09-10T12:59:30Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So, yes, more orthodox (“conservative”) individuals certainly believe in that commandment. The problem is, this is just one more of the games brazil’s argument is based on. Of course many sects of Judaism have various degrees of emphasis on a belief in God. It is not, after all, an atheistic religion. It does, however, allow atheists to be religious Jews, even among the Orthodox atheism isn’t a cause for expulsion. But this has been explained to brazil literally dozens of times. The only actual requirement for belief is a negative one, and that’s not to believe in other faiths/Gods. There is no positive requirement for faith in God, even if the Orthodox do believe that you really should. If Schmuel McOrthodox has a crisis of faith and no longer believes in God, his local rabbi will not kick him out of the congregation, as he would if Schmuel came to believe that Jesus was the messiah. But all this has been made clear to brazil multiple times. It’s just another turn on the merry-go-round. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/275 "2011-09-10T13:14:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Probably that’s because you aren’t reading carefully. > > For example, I said that Reform Jews were “among the more liberal elements.” > > You changed the word “more” to “most” and responded that you disagreed. I assume this is because you simply aren’t reading carefully. > > Similarly, if you had been reading carefully it would have been obvious that when I referred to “the more conservative elements” I was not referring to “Conservative Jews.” > > And if you look back, it’s pretty clear that **Finnagain** was insisting that (generally speaking) the more conservative elements in Judaism hold that Judaism does not command its adherents to believe in G-d, apparently just like the more liberal elements. OK. As I said- I was asking for clarification. I was not trying to catch YOU in a gotcha game. I was concerned I had misunderstood, so I asked. Sheesh. I also disagree with the use of liberal vs conservative to describe what we are discussing. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The problem is, this is just one more of the games brazil’s argument is based on. Of course many sects of Judaism have various degrees of emphasis on a belief in God. It is not, after all, an atheistic religion. It does, however, allow atheists to be religious Jews, even among the Orthodox atheism isn’t a cause for expulsion. But this has been explained to brazil literally dozens of times. The only actual requirement for belief is a negative one, and that’s not to believe in other faiths/Gods. There is no positive requirement for faith in God, even if the Orthodox do believe that you really should. If Schmuel McOrthodox has a crisis of faith and no longer believes in God, his local rabbi will not kick him out of the congregation, as he would if Schmuel came to believe that Jesus was the messiah. > > But all this has been made clear to brazil multiple times. > It’s just another turn on the merry-go-round. I agree completely. I keep thinking if I use one more example, or clarify terms, or reiterate my position he’ll finally see what the rest of us are saying. I’ve made my point and I am comfortable with having run this conversation as far as it can go. He is wrong. You are not contradicting yourself, or me, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/276 "2011-09-10T13:34:36Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > OK. As I said- I was asking for clarification. I was not trying to catch YOU in a gotcha game. Ok, things have been clarified now. I trust that you will go back over the thread, read the posts carefully, and see the contradiction I have pointed out. > [@](#): > > I agree completely. I keep thinking if I use one more example, or clarify terms, or reiterate my position he’ll finally see what the rest of us are saying. I think the problem is that you are responding to points which aren’t being made, just as **Finnagain** keeps harping on the “expulsion” argument. It’s already been explained to him why this is a red herring, but it doesn’t seem to sink in. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/277 "2011-09-10T15:39:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes that’s basically what I mean. For example, I would characterize Reform Jews as being among the more liberal elements and the groups in Kiryas Joel and New Square as being among the more conservative elements. If you think that KJ is conservative, what would you call Conservative Judaism? It isn’t non-traditional, though it may be politically liberal (and fyi, orthodox Jewish communities in the U.S. tend to be swing voters, so…). Because I consider myself a conservative Jew. Kiryas Joel is a Hasidic community, the kind that deserves its own designation beyond just ‘orthodox’ or ‘conservative element’. I still think you a) either don’t get that there are many forms of Judaism that you can’t just place on a simple x-as continuum or b) enjoy frustrating us. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/278 "2011-09-10T15:51:06Z")
\*\*x-axis d’oh! ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/279 "2011-09-10T16:07:06Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > If you think that KJ is conservative, what would you call Conservative Judaism? I don’t know. Somewhere in the middle, I guess. > [@](#): > > Kiryas Joel is a Hasidic community, the kind that deserves its own designation beyond just ‘orthodox’ or ‘conservative element’. So it’s not fair to say that Hasidim are among the more conservative element of Judaism (using the definition of “conservative” from a few posts back?) > [@](#): > > don’t get that there are many forms of Judaism that you can’t just place on a simple x-as continuum Well who do you suppose **Finnagain** was referring to when he said this: > [@](#): > > It’s perfectly clear what more conservative elements hold. Judaism is not a religion that’s about belief, it’s a religion about actions ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/280 "2011-09-10T19:09:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t know. Somewhere in the middle, I guess. So Conservative Jews (like myself) are in the middle of conservative and liberal Jews? Now that doesn’t sound right. I’m definitely a Conservative Jew and I’m more ‘observant’ than the more liberal counterparts. Doesn’t make me any good/better/more/less/stronger/weaker than anyone else, though. I couldn’t care less if **FinnAgain** ate bacon and I love hearing about **Ivory’s** family dynamics. I’m sitting with the rabbi’s family (well, wife and daughter) during High Holidays and they don’t care I’m an atheist. > [@](#): > > So it’s not fair to say that Hasidim are among the more conservative element of Judaism (using the definition of “conservative” from a few posts back?) Which definition? If you want to say ‘traditionalist’, that works, but we say orthodox, if not ultra-orthodox. > [@](#): > > Well who do you suppose **Finnagain** was referring to Ones that aren’t Reform or Reconstructionist. My synagogue would never outright say God was ‘optional’ or that marrying a non-Jew was ‘optional’, but they wouldn’t deny those people memberships, either. And the rabbi doesn’t perform [same-sex marriages](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/nyregion/conservative-rabbis-disagree-on-same-sex-marriage.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all), but the one in Boulder does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=15)