# Does Judaism require a belief in God \[Split from earlier thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209 "2011-09-05T00:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/61 "2011-09-05T18:49:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Where is the contradiction? > > Jew + Atheist = OK > Jew + Christian, (a group that has a specific view of God that can be seen as polytheistic–not atheistic), = Not OK. > > What contradicition? I would say there is no contradiction between those two statements. However, there is clearly a contradiction between the following two statements: (1) There is no consensus view in Judaism as to whether Judaism requires a belief in G-d. (2) The consensus view in Judaism is that Judaism requires a belief in G-d. Did **Finnagain** state or imply both? I would say yes. Earlier, he stated this: > [@](#): > > There is virtually no consensus on any question in Judaism short of “can you be a Christian and a Jew at the same time?” From the context, it was pretty clear that he was denying that a consensus view exists on the topic under discussion, which is whether Judaism requires you to believe in G-d. But at another point, he said this: > [@](#): > > You can be a religious Jew and not believe in God. And it is because we say it is. I took that to mean that he was talking about the view of religious Jews in general and not just his own views or the views of some subsets. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/62 "2011-09-05T18:54:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Here’s a crazy thought: Judaism requires that you follow no other religion. Are you saying that this is the only requirement with respect to belief? And if so, are you saying that this is a consensus view, just your own view, or something in between? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/63 "2011-09-05T18:56:29Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > It isn’t a contradiction, and Judaism doesn’t require “qualification” like many hierarchical religions do. So if somebody states that “Judaism requires X,” should I take it to mean that they are merely discussing their own views or something larger? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/64 "2011-09-05T19:08:30Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You would like a cite in which 13 million people came together to vote on whether or belief in God was tantamount to leaving the people? _What_? No, quotes and cites from the most respected and prominent Jewish organizations will do. > [@](#): > > Okay, but there is no ‘first mitzvah’ business… In the three sources I found the Mitzvot were in numerical order. In each case, the first one was “To know that G-d exists” > [@](#): > > Go and Google. Conquer The main results of the searches I have done was stuff I linked to already. > [@](#): > > You can’t “take away” anyone’s Jewishness. I’m not sure what your point is here. **Finnagain** seemed to be saying that if Judaism requires X, then you will be expelled from your sect if you engage in X. Are you disagreeing with him? > [@](#): > > We are telling you what Judaism has to say about these ideas and you keep arguing. If “arguing” is equivalent to “telling someone how to think,” then yes, I guess I am telling people how to think. > [@](#): > > You still have it stuck in your head that Jews have something called ‘the first Mitzvah’. I was just using the phrase as a kind of shorthand. I’ve never heard the phrase “the first Mitzvah” before today. I was referring to “very first of Maimonides’ famous 613 mitzvot” How would you like me to refer to it as? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/65 "2011-09-05T19:14:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Are you saying that this is the only requirement with respect to belief? And if so, are you saying that this is a consensus view, just your own view, or something in between? The real question is what you seek to gain with your JAQ’ing. Literally every single Jew who’s posted to this thread has tried to clear up your error. You obviously lack the basic frame of reference to understand what Judaism is or how it works, and we’ve tried to clear up your ignorance there too. You demanded cites, they were provided and you’ve ignored them because Judaism doesn’t have “authorities” and in order to accept the cites we have to pretend that they’re “definitive”, or some such. It’s been shown to you that major religious organizations accept atheists as religious Jews, that congregations up to and including _Conservative_ congregations do, and that Reconstructionism doesn’t even have a traditional concept of God and is fine with its members not having even that reduced gloss. You’ve been shown that the UAHC wouldn’t expel a member congregation even if its clergy was actively advocating atheism. And yet you keep JAQ’ing with fairly disingenuous requests for “consensus”, and “qualification” and “authority”. What do you hope to accomplish? Do you think the Jews in the thread, who know what our religion actually is, will somehow be persuaded by your JAQ’ing? Do you think that people reading along will take your JAQ’ing as the proper response rather than the same answer that’s been echoed by every single Jew in this thread and by all the citations provided as well? What’s the angle here? > [@brazil84](#): > > Did **Finnagain** state or imply both? I would say yes. Then you’re piling an utterly perplexing error in reading comprehension on top of your JAQ’ing. There is no contradiction, at all, between the fact that you can lack belief and still be a Jew but you cannot have a positive belief in another religion and be a Jew. That you’ve somehow twisted that into statements that “Judaism requires a belief in G-d.” and “Judaism [does not] requires a belief in G-d.” is an even more absurd strawman than when you claimed I’d stated I spoke for every Jew on the planet. Judaism requires no belief in God. But if someone chooses to believe in another religion’s concept of god, especially if that’s a religion that Judaism has had a very rocky history with for the last millennium or so, then they’re out of the club. You have to make a veritable Gordian Knot out of that to arrive at the mere suggestion of a contradiction. > [@brazil84](#): > > But at another point, he said this: > […] > I took that to mean that he was talking about the view of religious Jews in general and not just his own views or the views of some subsets. I already explained, quite clearly, that I used the word “we” in regards to the sects I was discussing, one of which I’m a member of. That was after your strawman where you claimed I was speaking for every Jew on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/66 "2011-09-05T19:22:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I already explained, quite clearly, that I used the word “we” in regards to the sects I was discussing, Ok, I understand what you are saying. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Judaism requires no belief in God According to the more liberal adherents. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/67 "2011-09-05T19:47:15Z")
Just more JAQ’ing or do you actually have a point now? Can you find a cite for how many Orthodox synagogs will expel members for not believing in God? How about how many of them would consider someone who was highly observant but had a crisis of faith to be “not a religious Jew” anymore. Or just more JAQ’ing? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/68 "2011-09-05T19:51:47Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Also, Judaism is enough of a thinking man’s religion that surely there have been rabbis who have tried to reconcile the first Mitzvah with the idea that you don’t actually need to believe. I would like to know what their reasoning is. Maybe only somewhat related, but I remember reading somewhere on the interwebs that one explanation put forth by some rabbis about the holocaust was that YHWH had broken the covenant with the Jewish people. A situation that somehow didn’t prevent them from being rabbis, hence, I asume, religious and following the Law. Which seemed mightly weird to me. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/69 "2011-09-05T19:53:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just more JAQ’ing or do you actually have a point now? Just repeating back what I have distilled from your comments. > [@](#): > > Can you find a cite for how many Orthodox synagogs will expel members for not believing in God? No. I also can’t find a cite for expulsions for theft or Sabbath violations. Seems to me that “Judaism requires X” is not the same thing as “Synagogues will expel Jews who do not follow X.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/70 "2011-09-05T19:59:02Z")
So just more JAQ’ing along with yet more inaccurate descriptions of my statements. Don’t know why I expected anything different. Let me know if you’d actually like to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/71 "2011-09-05T20:05:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Let me know if you’d actually like to make a point. Well one point I have is that “Judaism requires X” is not necessarily the same thing as "Synagogues will expel Jews who do not follow X. But anyway, I think that the question has been answered. 1. According to more liberal thinkers, Judaism does not require belief in G-d. 2. It’s not clear what more conservative elements hold. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/72 "2011-09-05T20:10:35Z")
More JAQ’ing that you’re going to retreat from, or do you feel like defending that new claim? It’s perfectly clear what more conservative elements hold. Judaism is not a religion that’s about belief, it’s a religion about actions. _I’d wager you can’t even find a cite for Orthodox synagogs trying to ferret out whether or not their membership have individuals having a crisis of faith._ Because it’s a non-issue. But this is most likely still a waste of time as it doesn’t seem that you’re going to put forward a coherent position or cite it any time soon and all we’ll get is JAQ’ing. Interesting, of course, that you never did answer what exactly you hope to get out of all this. Guess there are Just Questions that you’ve gotta Ask. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/73 "2011-09-05T20:19:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Are you saying that this is the only requirement with respect to belief? And if so, are you saying that this is a consensus view, just your own view, or something in between? You don’t have to believe in God to be Jewish. [That was even answered by Cecil.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1503/can-you-be-an-atheist-and-still-be-jewish) You can’t believe in Jesus, however, and have the audacity to call yourself a Jew. Or rather, you’re a Jew - it’s like skin color, you can’t wipe it off - but pretty much an apostate and not one of us anymore. And your beliefs in Jesus are not Judaism. It’s Christianity. Adios, goodbye, blah blah. THAT is the one thing that all Jews have a consensus on. You keep asking, “Does Judaism require a belief in God”? A belief for what? This is not like Christianity where Christians require a belief in Jesus to go to Heaven. We don’t entertain such hierarchical nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/74 "2011-09-05T20:21:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You don’t have to believe in God to be Jewish. > > [That was even answered by Cecil.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1503/can-you-be-an-atheist-and-still-be-jewish) > > You can’t believe in Jesus, however, and have the audacity to call yourself a Jew. Or rather, you’re a Jew - it’s like skin color, you can’t wipe it off - but pretty much an apostate and not one of us anymore. And your beliefs in Jesus are not Judaism. It’s Christianity. Adios, goodbye, blah blah. > > THAT is the one thing that all Jews have a consensus on. > > You keep asking, “Does Judaism require a belief in God”? A belief for what? This is not like Christianity where Christians require a belief in Jesus to go to Heaven. We don’t entertain such hierarchical nonsense. This is a tangent, but could a Jew be a practicing Buddhist? Or perhaps engage in Shinto rituals? I’m not trying to make a point, I’m honestly wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/75 "2011-09-05T20:23:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well one point I have is that “Judaism requires X” is not necessarily the same thing as "Synagogues will expel Jews who do not follow X. > > But anyway, I think that the question has been answered. > > 1. According to more liberal thinkers, Judaism does not require belief in G-d. > > 2. It’s not clear what more conservative elements hold. Conservative Judaism in the US does not accept atheism as part of its beliefs. It does, however, say that what God is and what He requires of us is something that we can’t understand and is open to interpretation. So Conservative rabbis will teach HaShem’s words or law, but no one is going to boot you from the Board of Directors because it’s been found that you’re an atheist. It’s about your practice. In case you forgot, fundamental aspects of practicing Judaism are things like: - charity - visiting the sick - helping those in need - equality - justice - education (especially in regards to Torah, ethics, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/76 "2011-09-05T20:30:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is a tangent, but could a Jew be a practicing Buddhist? Or perhaps engage in Shinto rituals? > > I’m not trying to make a point, I’m honestly wondering. Yes. Some Orthodox streams are very uncomfortable with it because to “leave” Judaism and go to something else indicates a dissatisfaction with the former, but others are fine with it. Buddhism isn’t a theistic religion. Walk into any Buddhist center and you’ll find Jews. 😉 You can’t be a Jewish Buddhist without examining your Judaism. also see: [The Jew in the Lotus](http://www.amazon.com/Jew-Lotus-Re-Discovery-Identity-Buddhist/dp/0060645741) Jewish enclaves in Eastern lands are also very influenced by their surroundings. It’s part of being a subculture. [Jews of India](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/indians.html) have fascinating customs and backgrounds. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/77 "2011-09-05T20:34:50Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yes. > > Some Orthodox streams are very uncomfortable with it because to “leave” Judaism and go to something else indicates a dissatisfaction with the former, but others are fine with it. Buddhism isn’t a theistic religion. Walk into any Buddhist center and you’ll find Jews. 😉 You can’t be a Jewish Buddhist without examining your Judaism. > > also see: [The Jew in the Lotus](http://www.amazon.com/Jew-Lotus-Re-Discovery-Identity-Buddhist/dp/0060645741) > > Jewish enclaves in Eastern lands are also very influenced by their surroundings. It’s part of being a subculture. [Jews of India](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/indians.html) have fascinating customs and backgrounds. Well, I’ve hit my quota for learning something new every day. Very interesting, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/78 "2011-09-05T20:42:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just more JAQ’ing or do you actually have a point now? > […] > > Or just more JAQ’ing? You’re using “JAQ” every other sentence or so. What the hell does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/79 "2011-09-05T20:51:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > You’re using “JAQ” every other sentence or so. What the hell does this mean? Just Asking Questions. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/80 "2011-09-05T20:55:25Z")
I think what it comes down to, is that traditionally, in Judaism, there’s the belief that “God gave us these laws, and we should follow them because God gave them to us.”, and the Talmud is pretty specific (if you look at Tractate Sanhedrin) that those who deny the existence of God, those who deny that God speaks to mankind, or that the Torah comes from God, are cut off from the World to Come. Obviously, since the Haskalah, things have changed, and like **Finn** said, Reconstructionist Jews don’t, as a whole, believe in a traditional concept of God (and Reform Jews don’t believe the Torah comes from God), but traditionally, Judaism has been tie in with a belief in God and Orthodox Judaism, at least, still is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=5)