# Does Judaism require a belief in God \[Split from earlier thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209 "2011-09-05T00:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/161 "2011-09-07T13:03:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What’s (apparently) tricky is understanding that “What do I need to do to be accepted by the Jewish community” is not necessarily the same question as “What does Judaism require of its adherents” What is Judaism seperate from the Jewish community? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/162 "2011-09-07T13:41:38Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Malthus: > > So when the Torah says to remember something that G-d did, or that the Jews did in relation to G-d, those words can be taken to mean, essentially, to remember the moral of a fable? That’s the atheist interpretation. Obviously, those who believe in the literal existence of God have a different interpretation. I would argue that the athiest interpretation is the most robust, as it is not disproved by outside scholarship - should the stories in the Torah turn out to be mythological, rather than literally true (as I believe to be the case with many of them), the lessons learned are not discarded - in short, meaning is not related to the literal truth of the tale. Take for example Noah. Geology and archaeology has long proved that there was no world-covering flood; moreover, comparative ethnology proves that flood-stories predate Judaism and are not confined to it - as the Greek Deucetolon (sp?) and the Sumerian examples attest. If tyhe meaning of the tale resided in its literal truth, it would have to be discarded (or one would have to ignore or disbelieve the evidence). However, if one looks at it as mythology and attempts to extract meaning from it, it yields some very contemporary lessons - namely, the essential unity of humanity (all descended from Noah), that all humans regardless of origin are equally capable of morality (the Noahide laws), etc. Similarly, although it is most unlikely that the slavery-from-Egypt story is literally true, the lessons of humilty and sympathy that the tale is supposed to impart are not thereby lost. > [@](#): > > First of all, the fact that the “remember” commandment is at the root of a more action-oriented commandment (to treat one’s servants humanely and free them after 6 years of servitude) hardly means that it is not itself a commandment. Many commandments contain multiple requirements. I disagree on this. The plain reading is that the drafter is explaining why the commandment is given: > [@](#): > > Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. **That is why I give you this command today**. The “remember” is the reason why for the “command”, not the “command” itself. > [@](#): > > Secondly, if the “remember” is treated as myth rather than reality, then doesn’t that compromise the sense of sympathy it’s intended to impart? “Remember” is an appeal to sense of personal identification with the afflicted, and of gratitude toward the one who granted said freedom. A fable can be inspiring, no doubt, but certainly not as much so as reality. I don’t see why this follows. There can be no “personal identification” with events that happened generations (in this case, thousands of years) ago. The events written about were already ancient when the Torah was redacted. Take mythology from other cultures - is the meaning of the Oedipus myth any lesser or greater if Oedipus was never, in reality, King of Thebes? Does his existence or non-existence make any difference to the impact of this myth on Fruedian analysis? The power of myths lies in the fact that they tap deeply into aspects of human experience, speak to something essential about who we are as humans. The Torah mythology has survived all these millenia because it does this task - tapping into human nature, warts and all - better than (say) ancient Egyptian mythology (though the Isis-Osiris myth had immense impact because it too speaks to something essential - getting repackaged in Christianity, for example). > [@](#): > > Thirdly, while your statement might be true for my last quoted verse, that would be completely out of context for the other verses I quoted. The command to remember the event at Sinai is, in context, so that we do not begin to take credit for our earthly accomplishments, which would result in G-d punishing us with exile and hardship. The “myth” is in support of nothing more than obedience to G-d which is (if one is atheist) itself just a myth. The second one I quoted is, in context, supporting nothing but belief in the “myth.” The third is a commandment to bless G-d for the land he has given once we have eaten, to satisfaction, of its fruits. If G-d is nothing but a myth, who are you supposed to be thanking? The farmer? If you grow your own food (and agrarian societies were certainly the rule rather than the exception in Biblical times, all the way up until the Industrial Revolution), is this a commandment to bless yourself? Or the unhearing, unthinking forces of nature? The commandments all speak to a sense of humility and awe. This is if you like the core of the Jewish mysterium - strip the Jewish God of his “big Iron Age chief writ large” aspects, and what you are left with is a sense of human awe at the workings of the universe. Here’s an article discussing the centrality of awe rather than faith in Judaism: [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m0411/is\_n4\_v46/ai\_20583575/](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n4_v46/ai_20583575/) To my mind, and of course this is only my own opinion, the sense of awe came first, and then was crystalized and symbolized in the figure we today know as “God”. Because relatively primitive humanity had to put a mask on this primordial and inexplicable sense of holy awe, he invented a creation that made sense to them: basically, an image of a great chief who lives in the sky, which he called “God”. It is (again, merely my opinion) a mistake to confuse the sense of awe (which is real) with the image created to explain or symbolize it (which is simply a human mechanism for explaining the sense). This is exactly the sort of mistake which idolaters make - they mistake the human-made creation for the (inexplicable, un-graspable) reality. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/163 "2011-09-07T14:10:01Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Maybe not, but it’s certainly a meaningful difference in whether you’re observing what the text of the verse says, and whether you’re neglecting what the text of the verse says. There are loads of Torah verses I “neglect” because they don’t apply to me any more, or because I find them morally reprehensible. Judaism is an evolving religion. If it weren’t it would be dead. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Rabbinic Judaism is not fundamentally inventive. It is fiercely protective of tradition (even back in Talmudic days) and the purpose of most Talmudic discussion is to use the Torah to prove or disprove points on which certain details of tradition became unclear. This is wrong. If that were true the rabbis would have jumped straight to the Mishnah Torah or Shulchan Aruch instead of creating a work of literature more than a hundred times longer than the Torah. That’s practically the definition of creativity. > [@cmkeller](#): > > I do not know what your scholarly background is - for all I know, you have studied parts of the Talmud. Ha, who hasn’t “studied parts of the Talmud”? Yes, I’ve had rabbinic training, but “studying parts of the Talmud” isn’t some mysterious high-level thing. We do it in cheder and bnei mitzvah classes, seriously. > [@cmkeller](#): > > But a refutation of this rather interesting viewpoint of yours on the Talmud is no further away than Maimonides. I disagree with Maimonides on a lot of things, and his interpretation of the function and purpse of Torah and Talmud aren’t really relevant to me. I am glad they are to you, though. I thoroughly agree that Maimonides wasn’t inventive. He took a creative work and distilled it into laws. Did you ever notice how much shorter the Mishnah Torah is than the Talmud? His views don’t refute mine just by existing. We disagree. To be honest I don’t really care how you read the Talmud and whether you value dogmatic reductions like Maimonides’ over creative artistry like the Talmudic storytellers, or vice versa. There isn’t any one single way to do Judaism. I won’t tell you how to do yours; don’t tell me how to do mine. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/164 "2011-09-07T17:09:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It depends on how you define the word “require.” I offered my own definition a few posts back. > > Of course you are free to point out that technically Judaism requires nothing at all of its adherents, besides perhaps payment of synagogue dues. However in my opinion that definition is not true to the spirit of the original exchange which sparked this thread. I think that in order to be part of a group, the other members need to accept you as part of that group. Because if they don’t, you simply aren’t. Group membership isn’t defined by people outside of the group, it’s defined by those within - they get to pick who’s in and who’s out. Think of lunch tables in high school… ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/165 "2011-09-07T19:02:06Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I think that in order to be part of a group, the other members need to accept you as part of that group. Because if they don’t, you simply aren’t. Assuming that’s true . . . so what? I already agreed that technically Judaism requires little or nothing of its adherents. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/166 "2011-09-07T19:12:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Assuming that’s true . . . so what? I already agreed that technically Judaism requires little or nothing of its adherents. I dunno what you are looking for. Certainly, Judaism in the form of the Jewish community and congregations of various major Jewish denominations requires _something_ from its adherents – committment to living a Jewish life, committment to engaging in the multiplicity of Jewish ritual, etc. The exact details of which vary between the denominations, but all are quite recognizably “Jewish”. The major difference between Judaism and some other religions, particularly most sorts of Christianity, is the subject of this thread: no necessity to believe in anything in particular, so long as you do what you are supposed. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/167 "2011-09-07T19:17:10Z")
No, no “technically” about it. And synagogue dues also not required. There is no other standard for what is “required”, for what makes a “good Jew”, a better Jew, or a righteous Jew, than what the Jewish community/communities believes does. The spread of thought on that issue has been illustrated here, from a minority view, concentrated in the Orthodox community but not universally held even there, that believes that faith is both commanded and important, to the greater numbers of modern Jews who do not. What other sort of answer are you thinking is even possible? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/168 "2011-09-07T19:18:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is Judaism seperate from the Jewish community? I’m not sure, but probably a set of laws, beliefs, and practices. If you scroll up in the thread, you will see I gave examples of acts which seem to go against Jewish law or practice but will not prevent you from being accepted. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/169 "2011-09-07T19:20:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No, no “technically” about it. Ok, the following quote is wrong in your view: > [@](#): > > Jews are commanded to do or to not do many things. We aren’t commanded to believe anything Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/170 "2011-09-07T19:33:02Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure, but probably a set of laws, beliefs, and practices. If you scroll up in the thread, you will see I gave examples of acts which seem to go against Jewish law or practice but will not prevent you from being accepted. I dunno what examples were cited, but like in many things, Jews can be considered bad people and bad Jews and still be Jews. The more cogent concern is: what sorts of things would have Jews of most denominations consider other Jews “bad people - and bad Jews”? 1. I think stealing was mentioned. _All_ denominations of Jew consider stealing wrong. A Jew who steals is considered, by other Jews, a bad person and a bad Jew. 2. Others - such as purely ritual or lifestyle matters - vary by denomination. _Some_ congregations consider Jews who do not keep kosher to be bad Jews, though unlike stealing, this does not thereby make them bad people. Just “less Jewish”, as they are not following all aspects of the Jewish lifestyle. 3. Yet others are purely personal matters of choice. In most forms of Judaism, for example, there is no absolutely set concept of whether an afterlife exists, or what it is like. Jews who do not think an afterlife exists are neither bad Jews, not bad people. They just differ in opinion. The problem you are facing is that, like most Christians, you seem to think that not literally believing in God puts you into the second category at best: a person who is ‘while not necessarily a bad person, is less Jewish (or perhaps not Jewish at all, or if they are, only by ethnicity)’. But this is not the case, except among some Orthodox. In the vast majority of Jewish sects, athiesm really falls into the third category - things that are purely a matter of personal choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/171 "2011-09-07T19:35:11Z")
Does Judaism require a belief in a god? Don’t know, don’t care. However, given some of the discussion in this thread, it’s worth observing that atheism does require the absence of any belief in gods and consequently a rejection of any sacred laws. So, to pass as a Jewish atheist it is not enough to persuade the Jews that you meet their rules. You also have to persuade mainstream atheists that you have rejected the Jewish gods. Otherwise, you’re a Jew, not an atheist. I fear some of you don’t get that, and may suffer a disheartening rejection if you meet any proper atheists. Yeah, and the same goes for any self-proclaimed ‘Buddhist atheists’. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/172 "2011-09-07T19:38:58Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Does Judaism require a belief in a god? > > Don’t know, don’t care. However, given some of the discussion in this thread, it’s worth observing that atheism does require the absence of any belief in gods and consequently a rejection of any sacred laws. So, to pass as a Jewish atheist it is not enough to persuade the Jews that you meet their rules. You also have to persuade mainstream atheists that you have rejected the Jewish gods. Otherwise, you’re a Jew, not an atheist. I fear some of you don’t get that, and may suffer a disheartening rejection if you meet any proper atheists. > > Yeah, and the same goes for any self-proclaimed ‘Buddhist atheists’. 😃 I’ll keep that in mind if I attempt to joint a congregation of “proper atheists” and pass their atheism test. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/173 "2011-09-07T19:45:55Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > You also have to persuade mainstream atheists that you have rejected the Jewish gods. Otherwise, you’re a Jew, not an atheist. I fear some of you don’t get that, and may suffer a disheartening rejection if you meet any proper atheists. Only if the atheists are woefully ignorant of Judaism. I’m an atheist gentile married to an atheist Jew. I have no trouble with my wife’s (and my children’s) Judaism because they (and I) understand it as a framework of ethics and comfortable rituals. And, BTW, my Passover brisket is TO DIE FOR. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/174 "2011-09-07T19:50:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ok, the following quote is wrong in your view: > > > [@](#): > > > > Jews are commanded to do or to not do many things. We aren’t commanded to believe anything > > Agreed? Honestly not sure. I can see how people can read the texts and believe we are. In any case in terms of importance the command, if one believes it does exist, is just not a big deal one. In terms of judging who is a good Jew, your definition of “requires”, no, it is not required by the vast majority of the modern Jews’ beliefs. **cmkeller** perhaps will answer this - to his faith is commanded and is important pole of the discussion - is following that command more or less important than say not eating milk and meat together? Who do you disrespect more, the atheist who is otherwise observant, or the believer he disregards many other laws? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/175 "2011-09-07T19:55:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > 😃 > > I’ll keep that in mind if I attempt to joint a congregation of “proper atheists” and pass their atheism test. Apparently many people in this thread _are_ passionate in their desire to be acknowledged as atheists. Isn’t that the whole point of the thread? It seems pretty clear they are accepted as Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/176 "2011-09-07T20:00:07Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Apparently many people in this thread _are_ passionate in their desire to be acknowledged as atheists. Isn’t that the whole point of the thread? It seems pretty clear they are accepted as Jews. No … acknowledged by whom? There is, as far as I know, no significant organized group of “athiests” to which acceptance and membership is accorded. This problem you are identifying (assuming I’m not being wooshed 😉 ) doesn’t exist. The point of this thread is to disabuse the OP of his or her mistaken notion that athiests are not accepted as Jews, or are in some way ‘not really’ Jews even if accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/177 "2011-09-07T20:07:11Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Only if the atheists are woefully ignorant of Judaism. > > I’m an atheist gentile married to an atheist Jew. I have no trouble with my wife’s (and my children’s) Judaism because they (and I) understand it as a framework of ethics and comfortable rituals. > > And, BTW, my Passover brisket is TO DIE FOR. Nope, doesn’t compute. Does your family’s atheism involve a belief in the gods and their laws? I’m not saying you can’t be Jewish and an atheist. I’m saying that some people seem to be saying that you can believe in the Jewish gods and holy laws and still be an atheist. Which strikes me as funny. But hey, knock yourself out. Like Malthus says, it doesn’t really matter. I don’t understand the brisket reference? Do you think it makes up for not eating bacon, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/178 "2011-09-07T20:14:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The point of this thread is to disabuse the OP of his or her mistaken notion that athiests are not accepted as Jews, or are in some way ‘not really’ Jews even if accepted. Maybe you’re right. The Hamster King seems pretty keen that the readers of this forum recognise that his family are atheists though. Maybe I’m seeing a subtext which isn’t there. But if not, why is the atheism bit a big deal? Why not reply to the OP ‘we’re Jews, deal with it’. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/179 "2011-09-07T20:14:07Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Nope, doesn’t compute. Does your family’s atheism involve a belief in the gods and their laws? > > I’m not saying you can’t be Jewish and an atheist. I’m saying that some people seem to be saying that you can believe in the Jewish gods and holy laws and still be an atheist. Which strikes me as funny. > > But hey, knock yourself out. Like Malthus says, it doesn’t really matter. > > I don’t understand the brisket reference? Do you think it makes up for not eating bacon, or what? The point is that Jewish athiests don’t, in fact, believe in the Jewish God (singular) or indeed in any god. How does one “believe” in laws? One either chooses to follow them or not. Following a set of laws doesn’t affect atheism one way or another. Though if you wish to set yourself up as a gatekeeper of “true” atheism - by all means, be your guest. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209/180 "2011-09-07T20:17:50Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Maybe you’re right. The Hamster King seems pretty keen that the readers of this forum recognise that his family are atheists though. > > Maybe I’m seeing a subtext which isn’t there. But if not, why is the atheism bit a big deal? Why not reply to the OP ‘we’re Jews, deal with it’. Atheist or theist, Jews love to debate and argue - particularly about Judaism. It is, after all, what this forum is allegedly for. Really, shouldn’t your question be aimed at the OP? S/he brought it up. It is really no mystery why, when someone’s identity is challenged, they respond. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-judaism-require-a-belief-in-god-split-from-earlier-thread/595209.md?page=10)