# Does labeling people by race promote racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338 "2020-08-17T17:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/121 "2020-08-20T09:32:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, that individual white person has done nothing to suggest racist acts or intent. Are they in sackcloth and ashes? No? Then yes, they have. > [@](#): > > You subscribe to some form of twisted racial “original sin” There’s nothing “twisted” about it, and the comparison to original sin is odious. “Sin” is made-up bullshit used for social control. White privilege and the ongoing legacy of white supremacism is all-too-real. > [@](#): > > and it seems clear that the bar you’d set to for a white person not to be a target of your prejudice is too high to be taken seriously. Me and Jesus … > [@](#): > > I hope you aren’t in a position to make hiring or legal decisions that impact on people’s lives. I’ll have you know some of my best ~~friends~~ subordinates are White…and I make legal decisions for my White wife on occasion. She has yet to complain. > [@](#): > > If someone had been the consistent target of black violence or crime and they used that experience to make snap judgements of all black people they meet…what would you call that? Earned experience, probably. But “target” is a loaded word. > [@](#): > > Would you think that is a sensible use of reasoning and experience? A qualified ‘yes’ - of course, that depends on them correctly reasoning as to motivations and historic background. If they just ascribe it to Blacks being congenitally violent, that’s not reasoning. I don’t think White supremacy stems from White biology, for example. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/122 "2020-08-20T09:34:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It isn’t bullshit Yes, it is. [Bullshit](https://www.oprahmag.com/life/relationships-love/a32824297/color-blind-myth-racism/) you only hear from the privileged. King said it was his _dream_, not that it was the way to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/123 "2020-08-20T10:31:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, it is. [Bullshit](https://www.oprahmag.com/life/relationships-love/a32824297/color-blind-myth-racism/) you only hear from the privileged. You link to an article that suggests we listen to the stories and circumstances of individuals. What about it is in opposition to my suggestion that we should “treat individuals as individuals”? Implicit in that is an understanding of the _totality_ of a persons experience i.e. ethnicity, gender, sex, sexuality, class, religion, politics, education, height, weight, disabilities, medical history…etc. It _all_ matters in different ways to different people. Any of those factors (or complex combination thereof) may turn out to be the most important or most impactful for that individual. I understand the attraction of labelling and stereotyping, especially for outward appearance, I just don’t think ultimately it is helpful. > [@](#): > > King said it was his _dream_ , not that it was the way to get there I believe there is no suitable destination that doesn’t require us to subscribe to that point of view. It may not be _sufficient_ on its own but it is absolutely _necessary_. It is a founding principle. I said in my previous post that laws and society need also to be based on enacting that principle. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/124 "2020-08-20T10:38:58Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You link to an article that suggests we listen to the stories and circumstances of individuals. What about it is in opposition to my suggestion that we should “treat individuals as individuals”? Clearly we didn’t read the same article. The one I linked to says " One objective is to move away from thinking of racism solely as views and acts committed at the individual level, and instead a system of moving parts." Perhaps you can quote where it says “listen to … individuals”? Because “we have to listen to the voices of Black folks, other people of color, and other marginalized folks broadly in all of our spaces.” is not it. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > King said it was his _dream_ , not that it was the way to get there > > I believe there is no suitable destination that doesn’t require us to subscribe to that point of view. I don’t care what you believe. I do know _you’re_ telling _me_ how to best overcome racism, and I’m about up to here being whitesplained how to struggle against racism when I’ve been doing that my whole damn life. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/125 "2020-08-20T11:05:35Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I think my response lies along the vein of, that simply doesn’t happen anymore because we as a nation have moved past that. And racism, while still alive is happening as a huge minority, and not at the legislative or rule making level and can be dealt with appropriately (prosecution, derision, etc) I live in Asheville, a city that just voted to provide reparations to a black community. Asheville, in the 1950s, had thriving black neighborhoods. We built an interstate bypass through some of the largest, displacing dozens (hundreds?) of families. In the 1960s, we had an amazing black high school, with more teachers with masters degrees than any other school in the state, white or black. During integration, we shut down the black high school, ended its champion marching band and other programs, and a lot of the black staff lost their jobs. In the 1970s, we had a thriving black business district. Urban renewal meant tearing down much of that district and replacing it with parking decks that served mostly white-owned businesses. So, yeah: in June, city council voted for reparations. I got a survey last week about how we should aesthetically improve the interstate expansion, an expansion that’s going to run right through a majority-black neighborhood. Please don’t tell me that these issues are in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/126 "2020-08-20T11:12:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Clearly we didn’t read the same article. The one I linked to says " One objective is to move away from thinking of racism solely as views and acts committed at the individual level, and instead a system of moving parts." and? I neither commented on nor disagree with that particular comment. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Perhaps you can quote where it says “listen to … individuals”? Because “we have to listen to the voices of Black folks, other people of color, and other marginalized folks broadly in all of our spaces.” is not it. I disagree, I think that sentence is perfectly relevant. note the part about “other marginalized folks broadly”. Clearly that points to a consideration of other factors than just race. You may not read it that way. That is up to you. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t care what you believe. I do know _you’re_ telling _me_ how to best overcome racism, and I’m about up to here being whitesplained how to struggle against racism when I’ve been doing that my whole damn life. And it is terrible that you’ve had to do that and your worldview has clearly and understandably been coloured by that experience. I just fail to see how continuing to perpetuate prejudice or identify politics on either side actually helps. I’ve seen no evidence that it does. An anecdote. In my own business we made a conscious decision some years ago to completely revamp the way in which we wrote our job descriptions when hiring. The aim of this was to make the language as neutral and as open as possible so that we widened the net as much as possible. We purposefully wanted as many good applicants as possible and we wanted them from as many varied backgrounds as we could get. New ideas, new ways of thinking, external influences. It was also carefully worded and carefully sifted to ensure that names, ages, ethnicity, sex etc. were completely blinded to us so that when we called in people for interview it was on the basis of talent and potential alone. Once in for interview there begins a rigorous process of understanding and measuring the _individual_, Prejudice is removed as much as possible. By reducing the possibility of systemic prejudices of all kinds as much as possible and focusing on the totality of the individual we ended up with a rich and varied pool of applicants. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/127 "2020-08-20T11:32:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Clearly we didn’t read the same article. The one I linked to says " One objective is to move away from thinking of racism solely as views and acts committed at the individual level, and instead a system of moving parts." > > and? I neither commented on nor disagree with that particular comment. “Treat individuals as individuals” _is_ a disagreement with that comment > [@](#): > > note the part about “other marginalized folks broadly”. Clearly that points to a consideration of other factors than just race. When have I ever said only race should be a consideration. I’ve quite specifically used an example of considering race _and context_, more than once. And “broadly” is where individualism goes out the window. > [@](#): > > And it is terrible that you’ve had to do that and your worldview has clearly and understandably been coloured by that experience.[/quote] > …and yet you’re telling me my experience is invalid. > > [quote] I just fail to see how continuing to perpetuate prejudice or identify politics on either side actually helps. I’ve seen no evidence that it does. Once again - it’s not prejudice if it’s based on reason and experience. And “identity politics” is not what I practice. I’m all about that intersectionality. > [@](#): > > An anecdote […snip…] You want a biscuit for acting like a decent human being? Have yourself a rich tea. But what was the point of that? I’ve nowhere advocated _discrimination_ based on … anything. So what are you countering? All I’m saying is Black people disliking whiteness is not racism, and it’s not prejudice. And being “colourblind” or “treating everyone as individuals only” is convenient erasure from a position of privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/128 "2020-08-20T11:45:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > All I’m saying is Black people disliking whiteness is not racism, and it’s not prejudice. If I said, “white people disliking blackness is not racism, and it’s not prejudice”, would you agree with that statement? If not, what makes the former true and the latter false? I’m wondering if there is logical reasoning behind your statement, or whether you are simply parroting the mantra that, for some reason, Black people cannot be racists. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/129 "2020-08-20T11:54:17Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > All I’m saying is Black people disliking whiteness is not racism, and it’s not prejudice. > > If I said, “white people disliking blackness is not racism, and it’s not prejudice”, would you agree with that statement? No, I would definitely not. > [@](#): > > If not, what makes the former true and the latter false? Several hundred years of history and several scores of millions of dead Black people. > [@](#): > > I’m wondering if there is logical reasoning behind your statement, or whether you are simply parroting the mantra that, for some reason, Black people cannot be racists. _Did you **read** the fucking thread?_ The one that has the post where I say, and I quote: > **Do I think a Black person can be racist? _Yes, I do_. Seen it plenty of times myself.** ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/130 "2020-08-20T12:05:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Treat individuals as individuals” _is_ a disagreement with that comment I disagree > [@MrDibble](#): > > And “broadly” is where individualism goes out the window. I disagree, we clearly are not reading it in the same way > [@MrDibble](#): > > Once again - it’s not prejudice if it’s based on reason and experience. > > And “identity politics” is not what I practice. I’m all about that intersectionality. I disagree, what you do is prejudice (thinking that you have _justification_ for such prejudice does not absolve you), and if you are truly all about intersectionality then in order to do it justice and not just in a superficial and simplistic way you’d have to consider _all_ the ways in which _all_ the myriad factors regarding a person may intersect. Such a web becomes very complicated and tangled very quickly and ends up at the point I was making, i.e. that it is the totality of factors and influences of the _individual_ that matters. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You want a biscuit for acting like a decent human being? So you do agree that treating people as individuals is the decent thing to do? > [@MrDibble](#): > > All I’m saying is Black people disliking whiteness is not racism, and it’s not prejudice. And being “colourblind” or “treating everyone as individuals **only** ” is convenient erasure from a position of privilege. Disliking someone due to the colour of their skin is racism. And the word “only” doesn’t belong in that quote. Firstly because I didn’t say it (and I carefully stated that treating people as individuals is necessary but not sufficient, not sure how much clearer that could be). Secondly, “only” seems a curious choice of words seeing as fully treating people as individuals means considering. > ethnicity, gender, sex, sexuality, class, religion, politics, education, height, weight, disabilities, medical history…etc so “only” seems to be doing a lot of work for such a little word. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/131 "2020-08-20T12:10:08Z")
“Whiteness” is a system, not a skin color. Just the words, when referring to race, “white” and “black” are, about this system, not about skin colors (quite clearly, no humans’ skin tone is actually white or black). “Whiteness” relegates non-“white” people to a position of inferiority/subservience/etc. “Whiteness” reinforces stereotypes that hammer home the supposed necessity and rightness of these relative positions. It happens consciously and unconsciously, and we’re all affected by it whether we want to be or not. We can pretend that this doesn’t exist, or doesn’t influence us, and that we can somehow treat people only as individuals… but in such a biased society as ours, this is a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/132 "2020-08-20T12:17:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Whiteness” reinforces stereotypes that hammer home the supposed necessity and rightness of these relative positions. It happens consciously and unconsciously, and we’re all affected by it whether we want to be or not. We can pretend that this doesn’t exist, or doesn’t influence us, and that we can somehow treat people only as individuals… but in such a biased society as ours, this is a fantasy. Saying that we must always be aware of how we might be affected by the environment we grew up in is a huge leap from implying that, by simply existing, one believes in “the supposed necessity and rightness” of one’s race one has been thrust into. So, saying that you dislike whiteness, and at the same time saying that people you have labelled as white can never be rid of their whiteness, you are saying that you will always inherently dislike aspects about these people. I don’t think this term can be rescued from these associations. I think it will always smack of irrevocably labeling people. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/133 "2020-08-20T12:17:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Whiteness” is a system, not a skin color. Just the words, when referring to race, “white” and “black” are, about this system, not about skin colors My original comment was pushing back against the prejudice shown to white people, i.e. directly related to comments about skin colour. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/134 "2020-08-20T12:17:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I disagree > I disagree, we clearly are not reading it in the same way Clearly. Well, not much I can do about that… > [@](#): > > I disagree, what you do is prejudice Quite frankly, I don’t care what some child of privilege thinks is and isn’t prejudice. (…and cue the “You don’t know me…” bullshit…) > [@](#): > > and if you are truly all about intersectionality then in order to do it justice and just in a superficial and simplistic way you’d have to consider _all_ the ways in which _all_ the myriad factors regarding a person may intersect. I do. Such as _not_ wearing sackcloth and ashes… > [@](#): > > So you do agree that treating people as individuals is the decent thing to do? When it comes to hiring decisions? It’s _a_ decent thing to do. Practicing affirmative action would be _more_ decent, of course. > [@](#): > > Disliking someone due to the colour of their skin is racism. I said whiteness, not White. > [@](#): > > And the word “only” doesn’t belong in that quote. So it _is_ OK to judge people based on their group membership? Or isn’t it? Because I’ve been quite clear that it’s not just skin colour I’m judging, it’s skin colour + enjoying the benefits of white supremacy, and yet you seem to think that stands in contrast to your own stance. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/135 "2020-08-20T12:19:38Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > at the same time saying that people you have labelled as white can never be rid of their whiteness Where did iiandyiiii say that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/136 "2020-08-20T12:20:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > “Whiteness” is a system, not a skin color. Just the words, when referring to race, “white” and “black” are, about this system, not about skin colors > > My original comment was pushing back against the prejudice shown to white people, i.e. directly related to comments about skin colour. I didn’t mention skin colour, and if that’s what you think I mean by Black and White, you’re mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/137 "2020-08-20T12:26:16Z")
@iiandyiiii’s post reminded me of this: > **[It's More Than Racism: Isabel Wilkerson Explains America's 'Caste' System](https://www.npr.org/2020/08/04/898574852/its-more-than-racism-isabel-wilkerson-explains-america-s-caste-system)** > > In Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist examines the laws and practices that created a bipolar caste system in the U.S. — and how the Nazis borrowed from it. I think a lot of white people have told themselves a “just so” narrative: white people are racist but so are black people! And the dark history of racism in the US is a story of two parties trying to come to terms with their hatred and mistrust of each other. Wilkerson’s conceptualization of American racism as really being a caste system challenges this story. One way it does this is by taking hate out of the discourse. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/138 "2020-08-20T12:29:14Z")
Caste systems are really just one kind of racist system, though. Certainly, the Indian one, the one I know best, is explicitly racist. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/139 "2020-08-20T12:30:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t mention skin colour, and if that’s what you think I mean by Black and White, you’re mistaken. Where on earth could I have got the impression you were talking about people who are black and people who are white? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Some might. African-Americans and South African Blacks are not among them. They dislike White people _because of what they did_ . That’s not prejudice, that’s an earned response. > [@MrDibble](#): > > But Black people being leery of any individual White person _at first_ is **not** prejudice > [@MrDibble](#): > > Black people have rational reasons, based on experience, to dislike and fear White people > [@MrDibble](#): > > starting with the assumption that any White person you don’t know is going to be a racist is not prejudice. It’s … postjudice. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, any time I come across a White person in sackloth and ashes, giving his last cent to a Black man, I’ll be sure not to pre-judge him. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And they’d be lying. It’s Blacks who have to fear police, not the other way around. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll have you know some of my best ~~friends~~ subordinates are White…and I make legal decisions for my White wife on occasion. She has yet to complain. So at least one of us has been talking about skin colour. That much is clear from my posts and your responses but only now do you take the opportunity to suggest that it is not about skin colour? Fine, I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/140 "2020-08-20T12:32:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Where on earth could I have got the impression you were talking about people who are black and people who are white? I have no idea, since I’m generally quite careful about spelling it Black and White to emphasise the difference. Am I going to have to have the Andaman Islander conversation _again_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338.md?page=8)