# Does labeling people by race promote racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338 "2020-08-17T17:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/161 "2020-08-21T14:16:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is, of course, true. But **monstro** is IMO 100% right when she interrogates her subconscious reactions and biases. Sure, but the point is that the test does not necessarily help you do that if it is not reliable. If you are the sort of person with the willingness to be self-critical and the openness to being wrong, then you already on the rigth path. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/162 "2020-08-21T16:53:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Just as there’s no shame in developing bruises after being punched, there’s no shame in developing unconscious biases after living in a racist society. I hope no one took away from my post that I feel guilty or ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/163 "2020-08-21T17:44:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I live in a country that is 10:1 Black to White, and I can guarantee you that Black people still see more White racism than the reverse. People in this society are _not_ equally racist, and I doubt it’s any different elsewhere. If you are a typical Black South African, I find it unlikely that White South Africans are the source of the majority of racism in your country. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/164 "2020-08-21T17:59:36Z")
Racism in South Africa isn’t exclusively between Blacks and Whites. There is and always has been plenty of racism between (dare I say it) Coloureds and Blacks, Indians and Blacks, and serious tribal prejudices between Zulus and Xhosas, and other many other Black tribal groups. You may say it was never institutionalised and didn’t have the same effect as White apartheid - which is true - but it’s racism nonetheless. It’s far a more complex situation than in the US, and certainly not a simple case of Whites bad, everyone else good. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/165 "2020-08-21T18:29:21Z")
I think it is a paradox that labeling (and not just race - but disability, gender, sexuality, et.al.) both promotes the negative -isms and is necessary to address the negative -isms. It both divides people, and helps people find others who share commonalities. It allows us to bond over shared experiences - and exclude people because they can’t possibly understand - even where they probably can come pretty close if we gave them some room. It behooves each of us to understand how we are using labels when we use them - what is our goal, and what is the perception of our use. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/166 "2020-08-21T19:27:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I hope no one took away from my post that I feel guilty or ashamed. I don’t think you were, but saying one is lying to oneself could be misinterpreted. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/167 "2020-08-21T20:16:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you are a typical Black South African, I find it unlikely that White South Africans are the source of the majority of racism in your country. Firstly - not Black Secondly - you want to accuse me of being racist, say it out straight (in the right forum), don’t be coy about it in the wrong one. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Racism in South Africa isn’t exclusively between Blacks and Whites. Something I’ve already outright said in this very thread. > [@](#): > > certainly not a simple case of Whites bad, everyone else good. Good thing nobody said that. But Whites worse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/168 "2020-08-21T22:42:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Secondly - you want to accuse me of being racist, say it out straight (in the right forum), don’t be coy about it in the wrong one. The views that you have expressed in this thread are clearly racism. But I don’t want to call you a racist because I don’t know to what extent you agree with those views. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/169 "2020-08-21T22:51:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The views that you have expressed in this thread are clearly racism. This is not at all clear to me. Perhaps you’d like to quote the specific views you believe are racist? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/170 "2020-08-21T23:12:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > The views that you have expressed in this thread are clearly racism. > > This is not at all clear to me. Perhaps you’d like to quote the specific views you believe are racist? He said it’s acceptable to dislike a group of people because of their race. That’s racism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/171 "2020-08-21T23:25:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He said it’s acceptable to dislike a group of people because of their race. That’s racism. There was some context there that explains it in a non racist way, if we’re talking about the same post. For example - was it racist for a slave in 1830 Mississippi to fear and dislike white people? Or for a Jew in Auschwitz to fear and dislike Germans? I don’t think so. If you agree, then there are indeed circumstances in which this is not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/172 "2020-08-21T23:38:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For example - was it racist for a slave in 1830 Mississippi to fear and dislike white people? Or for a Jew in Auschwitz to fear and dislike Germans? I don’t think so. If you agree, then there are indeed circumstances in which this is not racist. Do you feel that a black person who dislikes white people in 2020 because of the historical existence of slavery is not racist? Or a Jew who dislikes Germans in 2020? Because Mr. Dibble said it was acceptable for Black people to dislike White people now for things that happened in the past. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Some might. African-Americans and South African Blacks are not among them. They dislike White people _because of what they did_ . That’s not prejudice, that’s an earned response. He’s not even saying it has to be the White people that did it. From what he said, if any White people did something bad to Black people, then it’s acceptable to dislike all White people. When White people dislike Black people because they’re Black, that’s racism. When Black people dislike White people because they’re White, that is also racism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/173 "2020-08-22T00:10:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because Mr. Dibble said it was acceptable for Black people to dislike White people now for things that happened in the past. I don’t think he specified a particular time. I took him to be saying something akin to “in a white supremacist society, it’s inevitable and even reasonable that many black people will fear and dislike white people”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/174 "2020-08-22T03:44:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think he specified a particular time. I took him to be saying something akin to “in a white supremacist society, it’s inevitable and even reasonable that many black people will fear and dislike white people”. He wrote in the present tense. If it was 1990, then sure Black South Africans had good reason to dislike the Apartheid regime that was then in power in South Africa. But that was thirty years ago. South Africa has made great progress away from Apartheid. South Africa is not a white supremacist society. The Black majority holds political power that is proportional to its numbers. I’m sure South Africa still has racial problems. And I am sure there are White people who have racist feelings towards Black people. But it’s ridiculous to think that all of the racism in South Africa is coming from White people. And when I hear somebody saying that the people in a minority deserve to be disliked, I can’t help but compare it to some really ugly periods of history. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/175 "2020-08-22T08:00:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because Mr. Dibble said it was acceptable for Black people to dislike White people now for things that happened in the past. I apologize if my use of the past tense there made you think I was only talking about nebulous “things” that only occurred “in the past”. I’m also talking about White Supremacy and white privilege as well, neither of which are remotely “in the past”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/176 "2020-08-22T08:01:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > South Africa is not a white supremacist society. Ha ha [fucking](https://time.com/longform/south-africa-unequal-country/) Ha! > The Black majority holds political power that is proportional to its numbers. Window dressing. A tiny minority of Black people are allowed a semblance of power while in the pay of their White and Indian masters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/177 "2020-08-22T11:11:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Black majority holds political power that is proportional to its numbers. This reminds me of “how can America be racist if Obama was president?” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/178 "2020-08-22T23:28:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > The Black majority holds political power that is proportional to its numbers. > > This reminds me of “how can America be racist if Obama was president?” It’s not just the President. In South Africa, the President is black. So is the Deputy President. And the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice. And the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and both of their Deputies. And twenty-four of the twenty-eight Cabinet Ministers, including the Defense, Justice, Police, and State Security Ministers. Saying a “tiny minority of Black people are allowed a semblance of power” is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/179 "2020-08-23T00:04:47Z")
When the white people who took all the arable land give it back, then I’ll agree that progress is being made. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338/180 "2020-08-23T09:00:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Saying a “tiny minority of Black people are allowed a semblance of power” is not correct. How the fuck would you know? Google is not lived experience. You want to put Google to good use? Count how many of those ministers and others have had recent corruption scandals. You think it’s Blacks lining their pockets? Really hard when Blacks don’t have the money. And Blacks don’t generally own or run major multinationals like [arms companies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Arms_Deal) or other firms like [SAP, KPMG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta_family#Relationship_with_Jacob_Zuma) or McKinsey. Then Google the wealth disparity here. Hell, just read the fucking article I linked to. [State capture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capture#South_Africa) is real. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-labeling-people-by-race-promote-racism/918338.md?page=8)