# Does learning a secondary language change the way you think? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 17, 2006, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064 "2006-08-17T08:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/21 "2006-08-17T18:26:48Z")
> [@SCSimmons](#): > > There is, apparently, no direct Spanish equivalent to the English verb ‘loiter’. Around here, the signs use phrases like “no permanencer aqui” and “no haraganear” in conjunction with the English “no loitering.” I don’t know Spanish, but it seems that there are ways to express the sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/22 "2006-08-17T18:43:54Z")
[hijack] > [@Excalibre](#): > > Which ones are those? > > It’s true than French and Italian don’t make a distinction between the preterit and present perfect (literary French permits the use of the older preterit form, though), but both things can be expressed perfectly well with a bit of context. Plenty of other languages have two distinct forms, just as English does. Spanish, Portuguese, German, and no doubt quite a number of others all have the distinction you describe. But not used in the same way, yes, Italian, Spanish & French (languages I have some knowledge of) have a verb form which uses “have” as an auxiliary in combination with the 3rd form or Past Participle however their usage is NOT the same as the English “Present Perfect”. The easiest way to show this difference is that in English you “cannot” include a definite past time reference with our Have + 3rd form. I have been to New York. I have been in New York last year. I went to New York last year. If I’ve understood correctly (which isn’t sure) in Italian and Spanish there’s an element of the “preterit” being further away in the past - some regions in Italy hardly ever use the preterit tho’ and I thought it was out of favour among the Spanish speakers of Latin America - altho’ I say again I could be wrong. French & Italian would use a present form to convey this concept “I’ve been here since 4 o’clock”. (As would Irish speakers of English!) What I can say with utter certainty is that correct usage of the present perfect is one of the most difficult things for speakers of other languages to acquire. Guests have just arrived for food so I’ll continue later if you like. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/23 "2006-08-17T18:46:03Z")
“no permanencer aqui” … I don’t know why that strikes me funny! One of the best things for me about this board is that here, people routinely discuss in words processes that I am used to encountering only in my head. This has the pleasant effect of reassuring me that I am not the only person who thinks about stuff like this. Funny how the topic matter can be hard to put into words…yes, I think that learning other languages has given me a definite feel for structure and syntax, and how it forms the meaning of the words involved. I was watching a program on Mexican UFO’s, and a pilot was explaining how a UFO experience was affecting him as a pilot, and I remember he used the word “pasar” which was translated as “airspace”. It seemed to me that what he meant was much more than that, but it’d be hard to say how in english. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/24 "2006-08-17T18:53:33Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > …If, however, the (OP’s original) question is, does the process by which you think change if you learn another language, then the answer is almost certainly ‘no.’ I’m not sure I agree. Most reasoning is done via language (interpersonal reasoning for certain, but I’d also argue our internal reasoning as well; “talking to yourself” is more than just a metaphor). Learning a foreign language reveals just how thinking is rooted in language by exposing a person to a completely alien (yet completely sufficient) means for expressing thought. I suppose one could argue that a similar benefit would come from intense study of your native language. But IMHO because we all learn our native language by immersion at a very young age its embedded “rules” seem natural to us; it is far more difficult to analyze a structure that you yourself are inextricably a part of than to stand outside and be completely disconnected. Now, I’ll agree this may not _change_ the thinking process, but it certainly has an _impact_ on it, even if that impact is only an appeciation for the complexities of language. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/25 "2006-08-17T19:58:00Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > So the idea of Newspeak ever having had its intended effect is doubleplusungood? > > Really, I don’t mean that to be silly – it’s a serious inquiry, I having no awareness of these dubunkings. Newspeak would have, of course, removed _so much_ from the language with no means of expressing an idea, would it be limited to just plot device in the real world? Pinker discusses Orwell’s Newspeak specifically in _The Language Instinct_. His conjecture is that words will be adapted to new uses as need dictates, and gives some real-world examples. For instance, he discusses the evolution of pidgin languages (which are crude mish-mashes of words drawn from other tongues in order to allow a population that doesn’t share a language to communicate) into creoles, complete with rich, regular grammars and vocubulary, in a single generation. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/26 "2006-08-17T20:06:12Z")
> [@CJJ\*](#): > > Now, I’ll agree this may not _change_ the thinking process, but it certainly has an _impact_ on it, even if that impact is only an appeciation for the complexities of language. This is perhaps a projection of your own perspective into a situation. You cannot be sure that someone who picks up a second language will necessarily come to some realization or discovery about the complexity of language. Certainly _you_ might, but to you can’t say that Crej the Steppes Barbarian gives a toss about the complexities of language just because he picked up Chagatai in order to be able to trade with the locals. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/27 "2006-08-17T20:12:34Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > The easiest way to show this difference is that in English you “cannot” include a definite past time reference with our Have + 3rd form. > > I have been to New York. > I have been in New York **in the** last year. > I went to New York last year. I’m unsure of what you’re saying here – the emphasis is my inclusion, and that’s how I’d put in a time reference in the perfect, right? > [@](#): > > If I’ve understood correctly (which isn’t sure) in Italian and Spanish there’s an element of the “preterit” being further away in the past. I know that there’s a lot of differences in Spanish and English in the use of the “have” auxiliary. Just the other day I was explaining to my wife that in English we use “have” a lot more often than in Spanish to be _less specific_ than in Spanish – maybe I really meant “not so distant past.” For example, in English I would ask, “Have you been to the store?” Meaning, of course, “Have you been to the store _today_?” My Spanish-speaking wife would normally answer, “Of course I’ve been to the store [at some point in my life].” On the other hand, “Cuanto tiempo has estado aqui” is completely non-distant, and is in common use (although “cuanto tiempo tienes aqui” is more common, but I-as-an-English-speaker used to interpret that as “how much time do you have left here.”). > [@](#): > > French & Italian would use a present form to convey this concept “I’ve been here since 4 o’clock”. Spanish can be be similar – “Estoy aqui desde las cuatro” probably isn’t too far out of bounds, although as an English speaker I’m more inclined to say, “He estado aqui desde…” – Anyone tell me if that’s totally inappropriate? Most Spanish speakers I speak to don’t bother to correct me; maybe I just plain suck but they like the way I try :). > [@](#): > > What I can say with utter certainty is that correct usage of the present perfect is one of the most difficult things for speakers of other languages to acquire. That’s one thing that always drove me nuts about German. They have the perfectly good imperfect sense, but it seemed to not want anything to do with it, at least writtenly. “Ich hab’ das nich gesagt” instead of the simple “Ich saegte das nicht” (probably butchered that, but you know what I mean). Yeah, I know I wrote “writtenly.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/28 "2006-08-17T20:28:46Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Just the other day I was explaining to my wife that in English we use “have” a lot more often than in Spanish to be _less specific_ than in Spanish – maybe I really meant “not so distant past.” For example, in English I would ask, “Have you been to the store?” Meaning, of course, “Have you been to the store _today_?” My Spanish-speaking wife would normally answer, “Of course I’ve been to the store [at some point in my life].” Maybe it’s a dialect difference, but I would be more likely to say “_Did you go_ to the store [today]?” to mean what you want to say. I would use “Have you been to the store [ever in your life]?” the same way your wife would use the equivalent phrase in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/29 "2006-08-17T20:31:22Z")
Oh, and I might add, I would use “Have you gone to the store [yet]?” if I want to add some more things to the shopping list. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/30 "2006-08-17T22:12:53Z")
Insofar as learning mathematics has some aspects of learning a language, then the answer is certainly “yes”. Although it is in theory possible to think advanced mathematical thoughts without mathematical language, it is, in practice, impossible. Sometimes, choosing the right things to reify is crucial and no mathematician would deny that. Let me also give some anecdotal evidence. I know someone whose mother does not speak French (she was Irish) and father is French Canadian. He grew up in Quebec City. As you would expect, he spoke English at home and French on the street. When he brought his future wife (who spoke almost no English at that time–I met her shortly after they were married and that was still true) home, his father quite naturally started speaking French to her. So my acquantance says he had trouble recognizing him as his father while he was speaking French. Eventually he got used to it, but he still seemed like a different person. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/31 "2006-08-18T05:15:33Z")
My contribution: even in English, there are different, um, I guess call them dialects. To use a ridiculous example, Mr. Howell and Lovey certainly seemed to think differently than Gilligan. (Gilligan thought differently than anyone. Came with being the star of the show, I guess.) I won’t say that any of them were less ridiculous than the others, only that they seemed to think differently, about different things, making different conclusions from the same information. Which comes first, the culture or the language? Hmm… I dunno… ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/32 "2006-08-18T06:43:42Z")
**Balthisar** I wasn’t clear in my examples, the first and last were “correct” the middle one was not". However, by adding “in the” to this phrase “_I have been to New York in the last year_” makes the time reference non-specific again, “at some point within those twelve months but I’m not saying when exactly” (altho’ it still sounds a tad odd to me). It’s similar to saying “_I’ve been to New York recently_” - you’re not actually telling me when, I just know it wasn’t too long ago. By using the present perfect we’re adding a shade of meaning. “I went to New York last year” is just a done and dusted “I was there last year” thing. Brits tend to use this form more than folks from the US in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/33 "2006-08-18T16:26:21Z")
To expand upon the original question: if a universal translator became available tomorrow and nobody needed to learn to speak a foreign language, would there still be a benefit from going through the process of learning a foreign language? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/34 "2006-08-18T23:55:33Z")
I speak English and French fluently and I speak both without accent (I am a professional interpreter). I can’t tell you how many people have asked me which language I think in. In fact, if you needed language to think, deaf-mutes would be incapable of thought. Foe example, if I feel like taking a shower, my mind does not form the sentence “I would like to take a shower” or “J’aimerais prendre une douche”. It simply forms non-verbal ideas related to the desirability of my standing under a spray of water, etc. Now, I DO think in English or French if I am thinking about something I said or am going to say to someone who speaks one or the other. But this is more like rehearsing lines before a play. People only THINK they think in a language. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/35 "2006-08-19T08:40:15Z")
I’ll second what **Valteron** said. Unless I’m actually composing something linguistic (thinking about what to say or write, for example), I don’t believe I think in language at all. Certainly I spend a lot of time considering concepts that are very difficult if/when I need to actually put them to language. I don’t doubt that people’s perception of the world around them is partially language based (I seem to recall some study that showed that when asked to quickly count unfamiliar objects in a scene, people performed a little better when they knew the name of the object, even if they didn’t know what it was for). But I’d need some convincing that very much of it is. I’d need even more convincing that what we think of as “thinking” (abstract reasoning, problem solving, etc.) has much of a language basis at all, unless we’re reasoning about a language-specific problem. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/36 "2006-08-19T11:48:50Z")
I couldn’t swear to it, but IMO the OP doesn’t necesarily mean do we think in a language in so much that, does learning a 2nd language change the WAY we think. This implies (to me) that different languages and thus different cultures have various ways they approach different cognitive challenges and perceptions. We “think” differently because of the environment in which we are raised and this difference is embedded in our language. Thus, do we acquire these changes and absorb them into our own identity and thereby change the way WE think simply by learning another language. I still think yes. ---
**Author:** ![Myglaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Myglaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myglaren)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/37 "2006-08-19T13:43:06Z")
Beautifull put, **jimbeam**. I think your answer encapsulates it perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/38 "2006-08-19T16:38:31Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > For example, if I feel like taking a shower, my mind does not form the sentence “I would like to take a shower” or “J’aimerais prendre une douche”. It simply forms non-verbal ideas related to the desirability of my standing under a spray of water, etc. You’re right of course, but I think I almost always follow up whatever thought that I had with a verbal expression of that sentiment. That is, I get the abstract idea in my mind that I’m going to go through all of the motions of cleansing myself in one of those water-spewing devices in that special room, but then always think verbally, “I’m going to take a shower.” At least I _think_ I do. And yes, I either do it in English or Spanish, which is kind of how I catch myself doing so. Granted such explicit thinking isn’t required to do the actions; maybe the use of language reinforces my decision, or is just a reflection of such decision. When at work, of course, the vast majority of what I do simply _cannot_ be thought about verbally – my productivity would drop into the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/39 "2006-08-19T17:49:16Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > To expand upon the original question: if a universal translator became available tomorrow and nobody needed to learn to speak a foreign language, would there still be a benefit from going through the process of learning a foreign language? There´s more to language that just the communication of ideas, there can be beauty and art in the composition of a phrase or thought. Poetry and prose _tastes_ different in different languages. Shakespeare can be translated to any language, but the rythm, cadence and flow of the words and expressions would be lost. It´d be like playing a piano concert on a guitar; neither are necessarily a better instrument than the other but the melody would be vastly different and unlike the composer´s concept. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064/40 "2006-08-19T18:10:21Z")
> [@jimbeam](#): > > I couldn’t swear to it, but IMO the OP doesn’t necesarily mean do we think in a language in so much that, does learning a 2nd language change the WAY we think. > This implies (to me) that different languages and thus different cultures have various ways they approach different cognitive challenges and perceptions. We “think” differently because of the environment in which we are raised and this difference is embedded in our language. > Thus, do we acquire these changes and absorb them into our own identity and thereby change the way WE think simply by learning another language. > I still think yes. Except there’s no evidence that people who speak different languages _do_ think differently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-learning-a-secondary-language-change-the-way-you-think/369064.md?page=3)