# Does Lebron James look even worse if Carmelo Anthony joins Heat? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 13, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681 "2014-06-13T03:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/143 "2014-06-19T05:53:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You can totally ride each other’s coattails. I don’t think you quite understand what the phrase means. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/144 "2014-06-19T16:27:47Z")
I think I know exactly what it means but am using it in a unique way to describe what other people will think about Lebron and Carmelo. FYI, I don’t personally believe Lebron would be riding anyone’s coattails anymore, but my recent status as a Lebron hater makes me well aware that there are plenty of people who will think that no matter if its accurate or not ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/145 "2014-06-19T16:35:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You can totally ride each other’s coattails. No, you cannot. To ride someone’s coattails is to let another person do all the work and then take some of the glory for yourself at the end. > [@](#): > > Neither can do it alone or as the sole superstar on a team. Nobody can. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/146 "2014-06-19T16:59:40Z")
I think after four years of arguing with people about LeBron on this board, I’m ready to consign this one to the no-good-faith-opposition category. You guys aren’t even pretending to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/147 "2014-06-19T17:57:12Z")
I don’t think there’s any basis out there that would support that Lebron needs to ride anyone’s anything to win a championship. He’s the best player in the game by a sizable margin and has been so for a couple seasons now - yes even ahead of Durant. Irrationality comes with the strawman MJ comparisons. It creates a false dichotomy that either Lebron mirrors MJ and exceeds him or that he’s forever a deeply flawed player not worth our adoration. The answer is that you can dislike Lebron and STILL acknowledge that he’s a great player. It’s almost like we’re discrediting Lebron because he’s entered the uncanny valley of emulating MJ in that he’s too close and thus it’s offputting. If he was a little worse like Durant, he would be more acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/148 "2014-06-19T18:19:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, you cannot. To ride someone’s coattails is to let another person do all the work and then take some of the glory for yourself at the end. Doesn’t matter if they’re wrong, there will be people who still believe it and they can’t be shaken from that belief Lebron doesn’t imitate MJ, Kobe does. The problem I **had** , again, emphasizing that I don’t believe it anymore, is that he doesn’t seem to have that killer instinct, the willingness to do whatever it takes to win. Now I see that he does, he just goes after it in a different way. But maybe if he was more like MJ and Kobe, he would get more respect from other people and from me 2 months ago, but people remember him passing out to guys like Mo Williams and say “WTF, he should have taken it himself!” while conveniently forgetting about Kukoc ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/149 "2014-06-19T18:41:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody can. It’s possible to win a title with a single superstar, but it requires the rest of the roster being exactly tailored around the star’s strengths and weaknesses, and for all the role players to, well, play their role. Dallas in 2011 fit this mold to a T. It’s not possible to win a title when your point guards melt down to the point where they’re unplayable, your third guard can’t defend his position, your star 2-guard plays like he’s 50 years old, and you’re facing a team so deep and well-coached that they won 62 games in a brutal conference _while setting the record low for minutes played by starters._ ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/150 "2014-06-19T18:58:06Z")
The whole multiple superstar thing is silly as applied to the Heat recently, anyway. Last year’s title was won by a team with only a single superstar – LeBron – by any reasonable basketball measure. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/151 "2014-06-19T19:20:50Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Last year’s title was won by a team with only a single superstar – LeBron – by any reasonable basketball measure. He was alone in Cleveland. In Miami he had Bosh, Wade, and they added Ray Allen. They aren’t transcendent superstars, but they were all top tier talent. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/152 "2014-06-19T19:36:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Doesn’t matter if they’re wrong, there will be people who still believe it and they can’t be shaken from that belief I’m trying to figure out why I am supposed to care what these idiots think. Can you tell me? > [@](#): > > But maybe if he was more like MJ and Kobe, he would get more respect from other people and from me 2 months ago, but people remember him passing out to guys like Mo Williams and say “WTF, he should have taken it himself!” while conveniently forgetting about Kukoc Yes, this is the issue I was driving at. If people’s opinions are based on bad memories and selective memory and they won’t listen to stuff they don’t want to hear, then of course they’re going to say ridiculous things. MJ passed to Kerr and to Paxon at critical moments in two different championship series, so people who think this way are missing some seriously obvious facts. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s possible to win a title with a single superstar, but it requires the rest of the roster being exactly tailored around the star’s strengths and weaknesses, and for all the role players to, well, play their role. Dallas in 2011 fit this mold to a T. I figured someone would mention those Mavs, and you’re not wrong. About the most I can say is that if there is a defensive equivalent to a superstar, Tyson Chandler was probably it at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/153 "2014-06-19T19:54:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The whole multiple superstar thing is silly as applied to the Heat recently, anyway. Last year’s title was won by a team with only a single superstar – LeBron – by any reasonable basketball measure. > [@Telemark](#): > > He was alone in Cleveland. In Miami he had Bosh, Wade, and they added Ray Allen. They aren’t transcendent superstars, but they were all top tier talent. The post **Jimmy Chitwood** is answering used the words “do it alone or as the sole superstar.” Is that LeBron last year? Well, he was by far their best player and it was not close. [But if you take a look at the stats](http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html), you see Wade and Bosh were really good. LeBron got much more from his supporting cast in that series- particularly those two. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/154 "2014-06-19T19:59:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m trying to figure out why I am supposed to care what these idiots think. Can you tell me? I brought it up because as recent as 2 months ago, I was one of those people. I hated Lebron for those reasons. Its a perspective that I felt made it interesting to share. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/155 "2014-06-19T20:01:14Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > He was alone in Cleveland. In Miami he had Bosh, Wade, and they added Ray Allen. They aren’t transcendent superstars, but they were all top tier talent. In the 2013 Finals, Bosh averaged 11.9 ppg and 8.9 rpg; Allen averaged 10.6 ppg. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/156 "2014-06-19T20:09:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The post **Jimmy Chitwood** is answering used the words “do it alone or as the sole superstar.” Is that LeBron last year? Well, he was by far their best player and it was not close. [But if you take a look at the stats](http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2013_finals.html), you see Wade and Bosh were really good. LeBron got much more from his supporting cast in that series- particularly those two. For the playoffs overall, though, I don’t think a hair under 16/5/5 and 12/7, respectively, gets you into the “superstar” conversation; that’s all I’m angling for. They’re both great players, but of course I’m sure everybody agrees that all championship teams have great players. I just don’t think Wade and Bosh were more superstarry than Chandler, Leonard, Odom, Rondo, etc. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/157 "2014-06-20T13:48:30Z")
One thing that’s interesting about these discussions is how Jordan has become the only measuring stick for LeBron. Not Magic, not Bird, not Russell, not Kareem, just Jordan. That implies that LeBron has met or exceeded the level set by all of those other great players. All the LeBron haters are basically conceding that he’s better than that group, and that only Jordan remains above him. Pretty impressive for a 29 year-old. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/158 "2014-06-20T14:03:30Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > All the LeBron haters are basically conceding that he’s better than that group, and that only Jordan remains above him. He’s the best player in the game right now, which is why he’s being compared to Jordon. I don’t think it implies anything about those other players. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/159 "2014-06-20T16:12:58Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > He’s the best player in the game right now, which is why he’s being compared to Jordon. I don’t think it implies anything about those other players. There was a time when he was compared to all of those other players. “He’ll never be as good as Magic or Bird or Jordan.” But somewhere in the last couple of years, the other players have been dropped and now the comparison is just Jordan. And I think it’s because no one can seriously make the case now that he’s not at least on par with Magic and Bird, if not better. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/160 "2014-06-20T18:01:01Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > There was a time when he was compared to all of those other players. “He’ll never be as good as Magic or Bird or Jordan.” But somewhere in the last couple of years, the other players have been dropped and now the comparison is just Jordan. And I think it’s because no one can seriously make the case now that he’s not at least on par with Magic and Bird, if not better. Let’s just say we agree to disagree. He’s still being compared to those others, and many folks are still ranking him lower. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/161 "2014-06-20T19:08:59Z")
That’s because those folks either don’t really understand the game of basketball, or they are making the mistake of allowing their personal feelings to factor in the equation. To be clear, are you referring to a person who makes their living as a writer or broadcaster of the sport, or are you referring to an anonymous yahoo who posts in the comment section of an article? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681/162 "2014-06-20T19:34:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Let’s just say we agree to disagree. He’s still being compared to those others, and many folks are still ranking him lower. The reason the Jordan comparison came to the fore is that it became common knowledge that LeBron didn’t have “killer instinct” like Michael. Or like Kobe [if you don’t count this.](http://www.nba.com/games/20060506/LALPHX/recap.html) Regarding LeBron’s killer instinct, like I said before, [tell it to the Celtics](http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206070BOS.html). Or [the Pacers.](http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306030MIA.html) Or [the Thunder.](http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html) Or [the Spurs](http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html). [Here’s another for good measure.](http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306200MIA.html) That’s one of the annoying things about these criticisms of LeBron; he’s had his failures, but when the Heat hit the wall this year against an outstanding team, suddenly some people forgot the last two years had happened at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-lebron-james-look-even-worse-if-carmelo-anthony-joins-heat/690681.md?page=9)