# Does massive white collar crime deserve the Death Penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762 "2008-12-18T16:52:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/41 "2008-12-18T23:33:25Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > white collar criminals should have all assets seized and used to repay those they took advantage of as best as possible. As far as punishment goes a lifetime of menial labor with all proceeds going to the victims until paid back with interest. Works for me! I was gonna say, put them in stocks in the main square of whatever city their victims live in, and have barrels of rotting vegetables handy; but upon further reflection, I like your idea. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/42 "2008-12-18T23:37:25Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I am not missing out on that argument, I simply don’t accept it. Murder means taking positive action to end a life, by shooting, stabbing, poisoning, etc… Most of the other hypothetical cases being tossed around in this thread are not murder. If a white collar criminal ruins someone financially and then the victim chooses to commit suicide, the white collar criminal did not murder the victim. Rather, the victim chose to commit suicide. I too do not think that it is murder. But it is an action that causes death. Am I entirely morally upright if I allow a person to die in an accident whom I might save? If I see someone planning to commit suicide, am I under no moral responsibility to try and stop them? The question is not whether or not it is murder, at least in my eyes; the question is whether harm has been done, and whether the person in question is responsible for that harm. In my eyes, physically murdering someone and creating the circumstances such that suicide is likely, for example, are not necessarily equally reprehensible; but I see no reason that they may not be, and the degree of theft in some cases may be enough to make a comparison fair. > [@](#): > > The underlying presumption in **Blalron’s** OP is that money is the only thing that matters is human existence. Obviously it is not. Killing somebody has many more effects than merely denying them the opportunity to earn money. Kidnapping somebody has many more effects than merely denying them the opportunity to earn money. I would imagine that most relatives and friends of murder victims view the lost earning potential of the victim as completely trivial compared to the other things that were lost. If **Blalron’s** assumption was that money is the only thing that matters, then he would not care about murder, which he evidently does. And I agree with you; there are many things in life that are more important than money. Nevertheless, that does not necessarily mean that the loss of money is therefore trivial enough to never warrant the death penalty, especially when in such considerable quantities here. And i’m surprised to find someone whose argument is that the basis for the death penalty is the sacredness of human life feel the need to argue on the loss of things other than just life. > [@](#): > > My argument is nothing of the sort. I believe that some things are morally right and others are morally wrong, absolutely and without regard to the whims of any particular government. I believe that execution for theft is morally wrong. I was talking about your particular beliefs as to the basis of why we have laws on murder. Your claim was, roughly, that the idea that murder is a wrong considerably beyond theft has been around for a long time, and thus that it comes from a “belief in a special and unalienable value of human life”. If that’s not the argument you were making there, I apologise, but that’s certainly what it seemed to be. > [@](#): > > I make no attempt to lecture you about what happens within your own mind. I merely stating that to most people, the idea of equating murder with theft won’t fly because the first takes a human life while the second only takes money. Most people view a human life as worth more than money, despite the sort of equivalences that our government makes, as described in the OP. Now why should that be, unless we believe that human life is sacred, meaning given unique value by a source higher than human law? Why is it necessary for us to believe something is sacred or given unique value by a source higher than human law for us to value one thing over another? Do you value a dollar as the same amount as a cent? One life over two lives? If you are able to draw a distinction between two different things and judge each as worth differing amounts without requiring the involvement of a higher source, then it is likewise not necessary to do so when one of the things being valued is a life. And i’d tend to disagree that most people view all human lives as worth more than any amount of money. If anything, I imagine most people could point to at least one person they would happily allow to be killed if it meant they got some amount. Offer the option to kill Osama bin Laden to the average American, and offer them a couple of bucks if they agree to it, and I imagine you’d have quite a few takers. > [@](#): > > Let me ask again the question I already posed to Blalron. Is killing an 80-year-old worse than killing a 30-year-old? Almost everyone says they’re the same. Why? From a financial perspective, killing an 80-year-old does the next of kin a big favor. Clearly the equivalence does not arise from finances then. So why are the two murders equally bad? I don’t think they are equally bad. I would say the killing of a 30-year-old is less bad, all other things being equal. Let me ask you a question in return; Is killing an 8-year-old worse than killing a 30-year-old? I really rather imagine that most people would say yes. So why are the two murders not equally bad? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/43 "2008-12-19T00:01:18Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Let me ask you a question in return; Is killing an 8-year-old worse than killing a 30-year-old? I really rather imagine that most people would say yes. So why are the two murders not equally bad? Many states have laws on the books that only give the death penalty for killing certain categories of people, such as children, witnesses to a crime, and police officers. It’s obvious that “every death is equally bad” is not even true legally. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/44 "2008-12-19T00:18:06Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If serial killers deserve the death penalty, I contend that massive scale thievery also does. > > What do serial killers deprive their victims of? Time. The time that they otherwise would have been able to have had they not been killed. > > What do white collar criminals who steal millions (or even billions) of dollars of money steal? Time. Time equals money. And when we’re talking massive amounts of money, we’re talking entire lifetimes worth of work pissed away due to greed. > > At a certain point, losing enough money becomes just as bad as killing somebody. This, IMO, is a very twisted point of view and I find it ironic that you’re condeming the thieves as greedy, because it’s a point of view I can only imagine an excessively greedy person holding. Like I said in another thread recently, take everything away from me and I still live to play the game again tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/45 "2008-12-19T00:36:17Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This, IMO, is a very twisted point of view and I find it ironic that you’re condeming the thieves as greedy, because it’s a point of view I can only imagine an excessively greedy person holding. Like I said in another thread recently, take everything away from me and I still live to play the game again tomorrow. Call it greedy if you will, but who would slave 8 to 12 hours a day, 5 days out of the week at a factory for 40 years if they knew their lifesavings were going to vanish in a ponzi scheme? If the Ghost of Investment Future showed up and told you that any money you save WILL disappear, are you really going to work so hard? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/46 "2008-12-19T00:42:57Z")
Personally, I don’t feel that the death penalty really works as a deterrent to homocide. However, I believe that it would be an _excellent_ deterrent to white-collar crime. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/47 "2008-12-19T00:44:30Z")
[“Damn Pump and his actuarial concept of murder!”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Postal) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/48 "2008-12-19T00:44:51Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Call it greedy if you will, but who would slave 8 to 12 hours a day, 5 days out of the week at a factory for 40 years if they knew their lifesavings were going to vanish in a ponzi scheme? If the Ghost of Investment Future showed up and told you that any money you save WILL disappear, are you really going to work so hard? I’m not even sure what your point is here but the bottom line is that you’re saying money = life. That’s twisted. Money did not exist for the vast majority of human existence and our ancestors got along well enough to deliver us all to 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/49 "2008-12-19T00:54:18Z")
The problem then, are we going to start seeing arguments for the death penalty for massive scale burglary? I see a major slippery slope here. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/50 "2008-12-19T00:57:30Z")
Yeah, and it ends with hanging Kulaks from trees because they are ‘enemies of the people’. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/51 "2008-12-19T01:07:42Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’m not even sure what your point is here but the bottom line is that you’re saying money = life. That’s twisted. Money did not exist for the vast majority of human existence and our ancestors got along well enough to deliver us all to 2008. Not exactly. It’s hard to quantify human suffering in measurable units, but Bernard Madoff is probably responsible for more human agony and suffering than your typical Death Row inmate. If the Death Penalty actually did have a measurable deterrant effect (Businessman are probably more coldly calculating rational agents than a street criminal), it may be worth looking into. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/52 "2008-12-19T01:10:48Z")
If someone is cheated out of their savings, and it is determined after their death that their lack of funds deprived them of an organ transplant or a special physician who might have saved their life, could that be called “murder by theft”? Yes, I do realize something like that would be a bitch to prove in a criminal court of law, but what about civil court? I probably didn’t phrase that exactly right, but maybe you can figure out what I mean? Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762/53 "2008-12-19T01:32:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, and it ends with hanging Kulaks from trees because they are ‘enemies of the people’. It’s a nice strawman you’re setting up here. First of all, there’d have to be a specific law on the books beforehand so the potential criminal knows what he’s risking. The crime of intentionally (not negligently, it has to be done on purpose) stealing or defrauding an amount equal to or exceeding the Value of a Statistical Life (7.22 million) is punishable by life in prison or death. An impartial jury trial yields a guilty verdict. As long as due process is followed here, I can’t really cry too much over this happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-massive-white-collar-crime-deserve-the-death-penalty/477762.md?page=2)