# Does "mean" mean what it meant anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906 "2008-06-23T13:20:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/1 "2008-06-23T13:20:43Z")
Not the “nasty” kind of mean. The _other_ one. The one that’s supposed to mean “average,” or “median,” as in, “mean temperature,” or “mean annual rainfall.” Does anyone use it in this context anymore? Because whenever I hear it used in the comparative, the context implies that the person using it is intending for it to be a superlative. “He plays a mean guitar,” for example, is intended by the speaker to be synonymous with “he plays a hell of a guitar,” rather than “he plays an average guitar.” I imagine this may have come about as an ironic use of the other definition of “mean,” as in “he plays a nasty guitar” with the derogatory used ironically to mean the opposite. But outside of professions in which “mean” is always contextually taken to mean “average” (such as those whose profession requires them to make long term measurements with minimums/maximums/averages and such) does anyone use it in this context in common parlance? Because it seems to have pretty much shifted to mean “excellent” now. Personally, I blame The Who. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/2 "2008-06-23T13:29:42Z")
Well, yeah, “statistical mean” still means what it meant when someone coined the term. But notice that, on a very charitative average, 90% of people using statistics have no idea of the difference between the mean, mode, and median; the number is even higher for people who don’t use statistics but merely talk about them. So it’s a highly-specialized term, asking whether it means what it means is akin to asking whether “meson” still means what it means - in terms of quantum physics. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/3 "2008-06-23T13:46:34Z")
Yes, that’s still a current and correct usage of “mean.” However, that’s not a proper use of “anymore.” ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/4 "2008-06-23T13:49:15Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Yes, that’s still a current and correct usage of “mean.” However, that’s not a proper use of “anymore.” [/QUOTE] Yeah, I know, it was poorly phrased for the purpose of a deliberately obfuscated title. I could have said, “Does ‘mean’ still mean what it meant?” but that it didn’t have the same amusing quality. Not that the title was particularly amusing in the first place. In fact, it was a pretty mean title… And “any longer” would have probably been preferable in any event. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/5 "2008-06-23T13:53:14Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] However, that’s not a proper use of “anymore.” [/QUOTE] I’ve seen worse. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/6 "2008-06-23T13:56:14Z")
When people are talking about guitar playing, I think that the context alone is indicative of not speaking about mathematical averages. I can’t imagine any context where “mean=average” in this type of use. In fact we reserve the word “mean” as a mathematical word to indicate “mean average,” due to the dilution in specificity of the common word “average.” After all, what is an “average guitar player”? Has there truly been a sampling of everyone who pretends to play guitar to assess what the mean ability is? “Average” is bandied about without any real thought behind it; its current use outside of mathematics approaches the same meaning as “mediocre” or perhaps “ordinary.” ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/7 "2008-06-23T13:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I’ve seen worse. [/QUOTE] Quoth the raven. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/8 "2008-06-23T13:59:12Z")
That inverted use of mean has been around for a a while. > **[Search 'mean' on etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=mean)** > > Search results for 'mean' on etymonline > [@](#): > > Sense influenced by mean (n.). Meaning “inferior, poor” emerged c.1300; that of “stingy, nasty” first recorded 1665; weaker sense of “disobliging, pettily offensive” is from 1839, originally Amer.Eng. slang. Inverted sense of “remarkably good” (i.e. plays a mean saxophone) first recorded c.1900, That use of anymore is a regionalism, IIRC. There are no professions that use average when they really mean “mean”. That’s the common ignorant usage. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/9 "2008-06-23T14:52:08Z")
Some of the dictionaries I looked at online are showing **mean** the adjective (in its various connotations, including stingy, unkind, low-quality, and excellent) as a separate entry from **mean** the noun/adjective meaning average. Which would mean (oops–that’s a third entry) that the two are separate; it’s not as though one of those somehow came to mean the other, and the question of whether the word “mean” is used in common speech to mean “average” has little to do with the other sense of the word. Note also that the adjectival sense of “mean” meaning nasty or excellent is synonymous with “wicked,” whose traditional meaning of nasty or bad has also slangily turned into “impressive” or “good”: “He plays a mean guitar!” “Yeah, that solo was wicked!” ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/10 "2008-06-23T16:36:14Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] … the two are separate; it’s not as though one of those somehow came to mean the other, and the question of whether the word “mean” is used in common speech to mean “average” has little to do with the other sense of the word. [/QUOTE] This is correct. Here’s a link to a [list of definitions](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mean). Note that under “mean” (adjective), the slang usage noted in the OP is clearly distinct from other meanings - it has no direct connection with a mathematical mean. ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/11 "2008-06-23T16:42:01Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] “He plays a mean guitar!” “Yeah, that solo was wicked!” [/QUOTE] But sometimes, bad is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/12 "2008-06-23T17:02:31Z")
The usage of “mean” then is entirely contextual then, but can still get confusing. A bit like “cleave” which can mean “to adhere to” (intransitive) and “to forcibly separate.” I wasn’t aware that the mathematical “mean” and and the adjectival “mean” had separate origins though. English is a funny ol’ language. So … if someone tells me I “make a mean chili,” how do I know if they’re saying it’s good or tastes like baked ass? I suppose if it’s accompanied by retching noses I’ll have my answer. Context! ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/13 "2008-06-23T17:45:24Z")
I doubt you’ll even need much context. Nobody will ever, in your entire life, tell you you “make a mean chili” and intend for “mean” there to refer to a statistical average. [Well, unless they were making some kind of self-conscious joke prompted by this thread or such things…] ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/14 "2008-06-23T20:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] So … if someone tells me I “make a mean chili,” how do I know if they’re saying it’s good or tastes like baked ass? I suppose if it’s accompanied by retching noses I’ll have my answer. Context! [/QUOTE] They’re telling you it’s just average. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-mean-mean-what-it-meant-anymore/453906/15 "2008-06-23T22:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] The one that’s supposed to mean “average,” or “median,” as in, “mean temperature,” or “mean annual rainfall.” [/QUOTE] Note that “mean” and “median” are not the same thing, in general. In fact, they are nearly certainly not the same thing if the median is mentioned at all. “Average” in common English usually means “mean”, but occasionally means “median”, or even some other generalized concept of averageness. Stupid imprecise English.