# Does Michael Moore have the straight dope on bigots? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079 "2004-08-16T14:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/41 "2004-08-17T08:29:10Z")
Eloquently put. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/42 "2004-08-17T09:58:55Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > You wish. He’s shining a light at things wrong-wingers like you would rather keep hidden. > > Too bad for you that **Fahrenheit 9/11** is helping to wake people up to what’s going on in this country. He went pretty easy on Bush in F9/11, but it still packs a punch, and you just hate it, don’t you? > > Well, it’s coming out on **DVD and VHS on OCTOBER 5** , and even more people will be able to judge it for themselves. More millions will be able to buy it in retail stores or online, or rent it at Blockbuster, which WILL carry it, even if Wal-Mart won’t. > > You wrong-wingers can sling shit at Moore, but the stink sticks to you. Are you a bigot? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/43 "2004-08-17T10:06:11Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > You wrong-wingers can sling shit at Moore, but the stink sticks to you. Yeah, I slung shit at him all right…_I quoted his own fucking words!_ (Which I notice you failed to comment on during your silly little rant. Why so?) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/44 "2004-08-17T10:09:48Z")
Let her answer whether she’s a bigot. If she is, then her support of Moore is genuine. If she is not, then she has proved that Moore was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/45 "2004-08-17T10:44:21Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > This is getting to be a bit like an interview with Mr Moore. > > Repeats question: “Are white men bigots with regard to blacks?” And this is like listening to an interview from a fucking eight-year-old. Are you trying to stir the pot, or are you seriously dumb enough to think the words you quoted are meant to be taken literally? It’s not the most clever satire ever written, and it’s not that funny. But it’s fucking obvious he’s kidding, and the only way to miss that is if you’re a moron with an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/46 "2004-08-17T11:32:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Let her answer whether she’s a bigot. If she is, then her support of Moore is genuine. If she is not, then she has proved that Moore was wrong. Logically, if she weighs the same as a duck… She’s…made out of…wood? Good! And therefore? A witch! Burn her! ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/47 "2004-08-17T12:12:00Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Aren’t you jumping the gun just a little bit there? One lonely (but very intelligent and insightful) person agreeing with me, hardly constitutes a chorus or a gallery. Oh, hey…that’s right! He’s intelligent and insightful! No wonder you perceive him as a threat. > > And what? I’m supposed to provide “evidence” of consclusions I’ve come to by observation over the years? If you can kindly point me in the direction on the web where my opinions and impressions are cataloged, I would be happy to provide you with the “evidence” you say you want. (Nice little gimmick there, isn’t it? You know, asking for “cites” where you know one couldn’t possibly exist and then behaving as though you won the point because there’s no cite.) > > And anyway, Moore’s published and broadcast behavior is really all the cite that’s needed to illustrate my point. > > Cheers. 🙂 Starving Artist, do you try to come off as defensive and incomprehensible as you do, or is it a natural talent? You and Muad’Dib both chime in with your dittos to roger thornhill’s (now shown to be unjustified) characterization of Moore’s book - it doesn’t take any evidence for the more reactionary members of the conservative crowd to jump in and agree, I guess. I’m not sure what ‘conclusions you’ve come to by observation over the years’, but if they concern Michael Moore’s books, kindly provide some evidence to support them. I’m not sure who you’re calling ‘intelligent’ or ‘insightful’ either - do you mean Muad’Dib? Let’s see, what’s the name of his thread about Spain? Oh yeah, “[God-Damned mother-effing coward Spaniards.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=245065)” Real insightful and intelligent, huh? But yes, I realize that in your mind, everything down to the worms on the sidewalk after it rains is due, in some way, to someone somewhere attacking you. So feel free to keep flailing and incoherently trying to explain why every belch or bodily emanation that comes from a Republican is reason enough to launch the chorus of mindless agreement. Cheers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/48 "2004-08-17T12:14:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Are you seriously dumb enough to think the words you quoted are meant to be taken literally?.. it’s fucking obvious he’s kidding, and the only way to miss that is if you’re a moron with an agenda. Is he kidding about Bush stealing the election? Is he kidding about the influence of Halliburton and Enron? Is he kidding about the Democratic Party being indistinguishable from the Republicans? Is he kidding about the poor character of Cheney and Rumsfeld? Is he kidding about the arsenic in the water? Is he kidding about being working class? Is he just a big kid? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/49 "2004-08-17T12:15:58Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Gonna remind you of this in the next Coulter thread. Remind me where Michael Moore has referred to his opponents as the “Spawn of Satan”? Or, indeed, criticized anyone, ever, for being ugly? If you consider Ann Coulter the conservative equivalent of even a clown like Michael Moore, well . . . :wally ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/50 "2004-08-17T13:42:52Z")
Cut Mickey some slack, Excalibre. He’s hardly likely to call anyone ugly so long as there’s only one mirror left in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/51 "2004-08-17T13:44:05Z")
All white men are bigots to some extent. Further, all humans are bigots to some extent, it’s a normal psychological function. The difference is how we let it affect our actions. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/52 "2004-08-17T13:56:12Z")
**Avumede** , that’s what I understood Mike to mean. To mean the opposite, or indeed to mean anything at all or nothing at all, would not be satire. It would be gibberish. As Allan Bloom wrote, “The mind that has no prejudices at the outset is empty. It can only be constituted by a method that is unaware of how \*difficult \* it is to recognize that a prejudice is a prejudice.” (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![mambozzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@mambozzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mambozzy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/53 "2004-08-17T14:41:37Z")
Yes, well put **Avumede**. I occurs to me that an argument about Michael Moore in which the debators arguing can only see that either (1) Mr. Moore is incredibly insightful and exposes hundreds of evident problems within the American governmental and social systems which need to be corrected immediately or (2) Mike is a complete idoit attempting to shock the American public for the sake of his own fame and fortune, will only result in the two groups arguing ad nauseum eventually degrading from an intellectual debate into viscious name calling involving the overuse of explecitives. Not that I give a damn about profanity, I just wish there was a little more understanding on the part of both sides. Michael Moore brings up some very ugly topics, indeed. Does that mean he’s right? Of course not. However, it doesn’t mean he’s wrong, either. Example: A stranger off the street who comes up to me and tells me that I have bad breath is a jerk. However, that doesn’t mean that he or she is wrong, does it? Perhaps my halitosis isn’t as dramatic as they make it out to be, but in all probability, it exists. Like I said earlier, I find value in Michael Moore in that he presents information I’ve heard before in a context that I haven’t. People we don’t agree with can still add to a discussion and give us a better understanding of the overall issue. Personal attacks like the ones I’ve been seeing on this board are completely counterproductive and serve only to piss the other party off. Isn’t there a chance that maybe, perhaps, it is you that is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/54 "2004-08-17T15:56:40Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > But yes, I realize that in your mind, everything down to the worms on the sidewalk after it rains is due, in some way, to someone somewhere attacking you. So feel free to keep flailing and incoherently trying to explain why every belch or bodily emanation that comes from a Republican is reason enough to launch the chorus of mindless agreement. Did we get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I hardly think I’m the one coming off as defensive and incomprehensible. Did I not post a criticism of Moore’s comments in an overseas speech he made criticizing Americans and calling us stupid and using the fact that we’re friendly as an illustration of our stupidity? Is not part of this thread about his book Stupid White Men? Did I not subsequently post direct quotes from an interview he gave to _The Mirror_ in England and a speech he made in Munich wherein he contended that Americans were indeed “possibly the most stupid people on the face of the planet”? Did I not speak of him as a person who apparently has such a driving need to point out the stupidity of other people that he eventually gets to the point where he says it of an entire country’s population (I guess limiting it to “white men” still didn’t make him feel superior enough to overcome his sense of his own shortcomings), but without saying anything whatsoever about his _book_, which I haven’t read? Oh, wait! I know… I mentioned Moore’s published and broadcast history. This doesn’t mean I read his book, and it doesn’t mean I spoke of his book. It means I’ve read published accounts of his words, and they lead me to the conclusion I spoke of. I find it interesting that you choose to attack me for taking offense at his arrogant preachings rather than addressing the arrogant preachings themselves. Is it that you agree with him, or is it just that you don’t like seeing one of your idols pilloried with his own words? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/55 "2004-08-17T19:31:02Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > See? He does it again. “Us” and “we” all over the place, but do you really think he’s talking about himself? I damn sure don’t! _Translation:_ “I don’t care what Michael Moore actually said, I’m going to re-interpret his words to fit my opinion of him, then flame him for having it!” :rolleyes: And let’s remember that 40%+ of Americans still plan on voting for Bush in November. If that’s not proof enough that our nation is full of willfully-ignorant folks, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/56 "2004-08-17T19:51:18Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Did I not subsequently post direct quotes from an interview he gave to _The Mirror_ in England and a speech he made in Munich wherein he contended that Americans were indeed “possibly the most stupid people on the face of the planet”? Did I not speak of him as a person who apparently has such a driving need to point out the stupidity of other people that he eventually gets to the point where he says it of an entire country’s population (I guess limiting it to “white men” still didn’t make him feel superior enough to overcome his sense of his own shortcomings), but without saying anything whatsoever about his _book_, which I haven’t read? Look, you’re being totally obtuse about motivation and meaning. Why is it that all the right-wing blogs pick the “dumbest people on the face of the planet bit” (“See! He _really_ hates America and Americans!”) without the context that follows it? > [@Michael Moore](#): > > We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don’t know about anything that’s happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 per cent of 18-25 year olds don’t know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 per cent of us don’t own a passport. Yes, he uses provocative language that’s specifically contrived to get people talking. The idea is that some people will ask “Why would he say something like that? What does he _mean?_” That can only be a good thing. Yes, objectively, the United States’ public school system does not compare well with similarly-developed countries. Why not? What can be done about it? This is not an “Americans stink!” position. It’s an “America is in trouble!” position. See that banner at the top of the page? Part and parcel. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/57 "2004-08-17T21:43:10Z")
Of course he left out the bit about most other western countries doing nearly as bad on the same survey. And why would a working class person who could never afford to travel outside the country need a passport? The idea that Moore is aiding the fight against ignorance is laughable. Like many people who are fanatical about their beliefs, he sees his view as an unquestionable truth, and so anyone who disagrees with him in the slightest is either evil or ignorant. This has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative or being on the right or the left. It is a characteristic of a fanatic, particularily one who would prefer to see implementation of their views unilateral instead of through a democratic process. Whether you agree with him or not, it’s hard to ignore the fact that he is a fanatic. I can’t understand why liberals, who claim to enlightened and rational, would defend him. Or is he really more reflective of the views of the average liberal than I thought? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/58 "2004-08-17T21:57:08Z")
What does owning a passport have to do with being ignorant? Maybe it just means that you can’t afford to travel to all the places overseas that you’ve studied. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/59 "2004-08-17T22:00:00Z")
> [@Avumede](#): > > All white men are bigots to some extent. > > Further, all humans are bigots to some extent, it’s a normal psychological function. The difference is how we let it affect our actions. Good point. I got into an argument with my one true love about this. Sadly, I was on the wrong side. Her point was that we all had racism in us. Also, the best thing to do was to recognize it rather than pretending (strenuously, in my case) it did not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/60 "2004-08-17T22:43:11Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Did we get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I hardly think I’m the one coming off as defensive and incomprehensible. > > Did I not post a criticism of Moore’s comments in an overseas speech he made criticizing Americans and calling us stupid and using the fact that we’re friendly as an illustration of our stupidity? Is not part of this thread about his book Stupid White Men? Did I not subsequently post direct quotes from an interview he gave to _The Mirror_ in England and a speech he made in Munich wherein he contended that Americans were indeed “possibly the most stupid people on the face of the planet”? Did I not speak of him as a person who apparently has such a driving need to point out the stupidity of other people that he eventually gets to the point where he says it of an entire country’s population (I guess limiting it to “white men” still didn’t make him feel superior enough to overcome his sense of his own shortcomings), but without saying anything whatsoever about his _book_, which I haven’t read? > > Oh, wait! I know… I mentioned Moore’s published and broadcast history. This doesn’t mean I read his book, and it doesn’t mean I spoke of his book. It means I’ve read published accounts of his words, and they lead me to the conclusion I spoke of. I find it interesting that you choose to attack me for taking offense at his arrogant preachings rather than addressing the arrogant preachings themselves. Is it that you agree with him, or is it just that you don’t like seeing one of your idols pilloried with his own words? What are you talking about? I can’t even follow the train of thought you’re on. Why do you do this? The context for the things I say is pretty clear, and yet you consistently (and it’s only you, babycakes - problem ain’t on my end) decide to quote parts of it, and interpret them in a context that makes them completely nonsensical. I originally posted to note that you and **Muad’Dib** (the “peanut gallery” I mentioned) were vociferously agreeing with **thornhill** ’s absurd summary, despite the fact that he couldn’t cite an instance of Moore actually _saying_ it, and despite the fact that it had become clear that Moore never said any such thing. You replied, casting yourself as the Rush Limbaugh-figure (note, again, that it was obviously **thornhill** that I was referring to), and called **Muad’Dib** insightful (or some other such ridiculous claptrap.) So I replied, with the message you quoted above. At this point, I no longer have any idea how you interpreted my post, but since you seem only to like arguing against imaginary opponents, perhaps you’d have an easier time of this if you just played both sides, and kept it to yourself. Now you’re talking about Michael Moore. Who obviously, given the fact that I called him a “clown” in this thread, is not my idol (but then, I suppose this is a pretty minor strawman for you.) I don’t know why you’re dragging him into this - I just popped in with one brief aside about how the quote wasn’t backed up with, you know, _evidence_. “Evidence” is that stuff we use to prove assertions. You, **thornhill** , and Dubya above all seem to have troubles finding any. At no point did I enter into any material discussion of Mr. Moore or any defense of his quote. So your ravings about how he was mean to you are completely irrelevant here, and others have already provided the context. You don’t seem to be able to argue on their level, which I guess is why you decided instead to launch yourself at a passerby who wasn’t really engaged in the argument in the first place. Look, SA, I felt for you for a little bit but suddenly I think this stupid act in which you whine that no one understands you and everyone puts words in your mouth is just a way to avoid backing up your arguments. In other words, :rolleyes: Cheers. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079.md?page=4)