# Does Michael Moore have the straight dope on bigots? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079 "2004-08-16T14:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/81 "2004-08-18T06:05:53Z")
I haven’t the vaguest idea whether he’s kidding or not, but I suspect that most black people who are killed by guns are killed by other blacks, and I would think he would be aware of that. This would lead me to believe that if he was truly trying to save the lives of black kids by exhorting whites not to buy guns, he was off base to say the least. My guess is it’s just another of his attempts to try to trick people into doing what he wants, this time by presenting a specious soloution to a genuine problem. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/82 "2004-08-18T06:23:00Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > As mentioned in an earlier post, I haven’t seen _Bowling for Columbine_. As I understand it, Mike’s stance in the film is anti-gun, and as far as I’m aware Moore doesn’t own a gun himself. Give me a fucking break! This has been discussed a million times on this board. If you won’t see the movie, at least read one of the damn threads about it so you can know what the hell you’re talking about. The movie is not “anti-gun,” though it contains a lot of harsh critiques of the NRA. Nowhere does Moore call for, say, illegalizing all guns. He states early on that as a child he won a marksmanship contest and was given a lifetime NRA membership. (There may be some debate as to whether that’s true, I haven’t followed all of it.) The movie itself is only marginally about guns. Critics have certainly said that he’s anti-gun; in reality it might be fair to say he’s anti-NRA and he makes some ‘gun nuts’ look bad, but that’s a long way from anti-gun in my opinion. > [@](#): > > So, if there are any dopers out there who can answer my question, I’ll put it one last time: when Mike asks white Americans not to buy guns (in the context of his desire to save the lives of black kids), is he kidding or not? :smack: I need a Tylenol. Yes, dammit, he’s kidding. He’s not seriously proposing that by telling white people not to buy guns, he is saving black kids. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > My guess is it’s just another of his attempts to try to trick people into doing what he wants, this time by presenting a specious soloution to a genuine problem. If his audience is that dumb, how can they read the fucking book? 😕 You must think there are a lot of liberal **roger thornhill** s out there. A very good portion of his readers probably don’t own guns in the first place, so no trickery is necessary. I gather from this thread that only people who read his stuff very selectively have trouble figuring out when he is being serious, when he is kidding, and when he is going over the top to make a point. Your average person gets it. I’m rather amazed you think he is subtle enough to trick people this way. I usually enjoy his stuff, and I’d never accuse him of being subtle! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/83 "2004-08-18T06:24:22Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Argh, make that “honorable.” Don’t worry about minor spelling errors; Those aren’t what make your posts sound so stupid. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/84 "2004-08-18T06:25:01Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > So, to claim that Mike is addressing liberals in the next line ‘Really. Black people are onto us’ is difficult to sustain. Rather than narrowing his target audience, Mike appears to be widening it. Two things suggest this. First, the change to use of inclusive ‘we/us’; second, the fact that later on the same page (p. 79), Mike does address liberals, but only to scorn their sentimentality and fuzzy thinking by writing 'I’ve heard liberals say dumb things like, “There are no black people on \*Friends”. ’ However, you are ignoring (or missing) his reference to “Liberal ‘concerns’.” This is a clear and unambiguous phrase pointing to similar discussion dating back nearly 40 years that trump your references to what he may or may not have said in totally separate (if adjacent) sections of his work. The references to “black friends” and “our progress” are totally consistent with a slam on “Liberals” (as currently identified in the U.S.) and cannot be expanded to everyone with European antecedents. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/85 "2004-08-18T06:34:11Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I haven’t the vaguest idea whether he’s kidding or not, but I suspect that most black people who are killed by guns are killed by other blacks, and I would think he would be aware of that. This would lead me to believe that if he was truly trying to save the lives of black kids by exhorting whites not to buy guns, he was off base to say the least. My guess is it’s just another of his attempts to try to trick people into doing what he wants, this time by presenting a specious soloution to a genuine problem. Mike’s argument (p. 78) is that most guns are introduced into society by white people, and that ‘each year about 500,000 guns are stolen, mostly from these same white people in the suburbs’. They are then sold or traded by blacks in the inner city and are used,as you suggest, by black people to kill one another. To return to my question about whether M.M. is kidding in the remedies he offers to white people who are concerned about the plight of black people, there are six suggestions altogether: 1. Hire only black people. 2. If you own a business, pay people a living wage, provide day care, and make sure all your employees have health insurance. 3. Don’t buy a handgun. 4. Lose all the liberal “concern” for black people. 5. Look in the mirror. (change yourself) 6. Don’t marry whitey. Only #6 appears to be made (entirely) tongue-in-cheek, although he seems aware of the legal sitaution with regard to #1. Is this how others understand him? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/86 "2004-08-18T06:35:49Z")
[QUOTE=roger thornhill] > [@](#): > > Only #6 appears to be made (entirely) tongue-in-cheek, although he seems aware of the legal sitaution with regard to #1. > > Is this how others understand him? Given your own clearly limited understanding of what he says, are you SURE you want to ask about how other people understand him? Nobody thinks this is actual advice to be followed. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/87 "2004-08-18T06:41:14Z")
Does Michael own a gun? Are none of the 6 points advice to be followed. What’s the point of them in that case? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/88 "2004-08-18T06:42:07Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Does Michael own a gun? You’d have to ask him. > [@](#): > > Are none of the 6 points advice to be followed. What’s the point of them in that case? Humor, you fucking simpleton! ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/89 "2004-08-18T06:45:21Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] You’d have to ask him. [QUOTE] Surely this is a question which Mike has been asked and which he has answered. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/90 "2004-08-18T06:46:05Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Surely this is a question which Mike has been asked and which he has answered. That may be, but I’ve never heard the answer, so I can’t provide it. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/91 "2004-08-18T06:49:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re the only person I’ve ever met who had this much damn trouble understanding him. So yeah, I think this one is on you. I dunno, **Starving Artist** is pulling off an impressive act of “reading what Michael Moore actually said and then interpreting his words to mean the opposite,” especially vis-a-vis the whole “we Americans are stupid” bit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/92 "2004-08-18T06:54:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I dunno, **Starving Artist** is pulling off an impressive act of “reading what Michael Moore actually said and then interpreting his words to mean the opposite,” especially vis-a-vis the whole “we Americans are stupid” bit. Yeah. That’s why the next time it came up I said only people who read his stuff very selectively have this problem and average people understand it just fine. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/93 "2004-08-18T07:06:43Z")
Moore doesn’t own a gun. [http://www.zap2it.com/movies/news/pstory/0,3382,14353,00.html](http://www.zap2it.com/movies/news/pstory/0,3382,14353,00.html) I’m not sure who’s guilty of selective reading if you don’t believe that Points 2-4, at least, are ‘advice to be followed’. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/94 "2004-08-18T07:18:48Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Moore doesn’t own a gun. Wahoo. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > I’m not sure who’s guilty of selective reading if you don’t believe that Points 2-4, at least, are ‘advice to be followed’. Let’s run through this list, then, since you insist on being dragged through every point kicking and screaming. > [@Moore](#): > > 1. Hire only black people. Obviously not serious. > [@Moore](#): > > 1. If you own a business, pay people a living wage, provide day care, and make sure all your employees have health insurance. Yes, he probably does think that’s a good idea. > [@Moore](#): > > 1. Don’t buy a handgun. As I said, likely irrelevant, and unlikely to be taken as serious advice. And I strongly doubt this is how it’s intended. > [@Moore](#): > > 1. Lose all the liberal “concern” for black people. Humorous way of saying “don’t be patronizing and full of crap, do something,” not “stop caring.” > [@Moore](#): > > 1. Look in the mirror. (change yourself) Self-help? Obvious in its own way. > [@Moore](#): > > 1. Don’t marry whitey. Obviously not serious. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/95 "2004-08-18T07:29:05Z")
1. Don’t buy a handgun. Marley wrote: “As I said, likely irrelevant, and unlikely to be taken as serious advice. And I strongly doubt this is how it’s intended.” I don’t see how it’s irrelevant. Given that the book was #1 on the NYT bestseller list, many of those who have read the book must be gun-owners. And the point is not whether Moore’s words will be taken as advice, but whether he meant them as advice/suggestions. Given the serious tone he adopts in this section, and the serious nature of the issue (people getting killed), I can hardly imagine a scenario in which he did not intend it as solid advice, which followed would lead to a better world. Unless, of course, his desire for a better world (oft expressed) is a joke too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/96 "2004-08-18T07:44:55Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I don’t see how it’s irrelevant. Because people will not make the decision to buy a gun or not buy a gun based on what Michael Moore writes. He is not a guy who reaches out to politically undecided people for the most part, he preaches to the converted. Even if you can’t tell, a lot of the book is obviously humor, so I don’t think it will be used for advice, and I don’t think someone writing humor will intend his words to be taken as advice. > [@](#): > > Given that the book was #1 on the NYT bestseller list, many of those who have read the book must be gun-owners. I don’t know why that matters. I’m sure some were, but the audience for a book is self-selecting. I think more non-gun-owners than gun-owners read Michael Moore by a wide margin. > [@](#): > > And the point is not whether Moore’s words will be taken as advice, but whether he meant them as advice/suggestions. I think I already covered this, and as you did with Moore, you’re selectively quoting and either missing the point or pretending to do so to be annoying. > [@](#): > > Given the serious tone he adopts in this section, and the serious nature of the issue (people getting killed), I can hardly imagine a scenario in which he did not intend it as solid advice, which followed would lead to a better world. I think we’ve already established that you have a lot of trouble telling what tone Moore (and probably other people) are using in their writing. I have serious doubts about your imagination as well. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/97 "2004-08-18T08:08:38Z")
The underlying tone of Moore’s opera (book, movie, interviews) that I have seen is not humour, but anger. The book is laced with sarcasm, but I can say that I only smiled once or twice throughout. I’m not sure that it’s entirely true to say that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but an unremitting barrage of sarcasm is conducive to neither wit nor humour. No, it’s the rage that comes across the strongest, especially in F9/11, where his is barely concealed beneath the carefully controlled intoning. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/98 "2004-08-18T09:46:11Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > The underlying tone of Moore’s opera (book, movie, interviews) that I have seen is not humour, but anger. That’s often true. But since I’ve seen more of his movies than you have, and I’ve seen him speak in person in addition to reading Stupid White Men, I’m going to give myself the benefit of the doubt when it comes to making judgments about him. > [@](#): > > The book is laced with sarcasm, but I can say that I only smiled once or twice throughout. I’m not sure that it’s entirely true to say that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but an unremitting barrage of sarcasm is conducive to neither wit nor humour. I didn’t say he was funny, I said he was writing humor. Big difference. > [@](#): > > No, it’s the rage that comes across the strongest, especially in F9/11, where his is barely concealed beneath the carefully controlled intoning. You’re getting off the point here. A lot of his stuff is angry, yes, and that may be his dominant emotion. The fact remains that he is not always being serious. The fact that Fahrenheit 9/11 is mostly serious doesn’t impact whether certain passages in one of his books are serious. When I saw him on the Dude, Where’s My Country? book tour, I was surprised that he seemed to be in such a good mood and rarely showed any anger. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/99 "2004-08-18T09:51:06Z")
Perhaps his rage is being diluted by his fame. He wouldn’t be the first anti-establishment figure to lose some of his/her crusading zeal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079/100 "2004-08-18T09:53:13Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Perhaps his rage is being diluted by his fame. He wouldn’t be the first anti-establishment figure to lose some of his/her crusading zeal. I thought of that, but actually his earlier stuff is LESS angry. Bowling for Columbine has a lot more humor than F9/11 does, for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-michael-moore-have-the-straight-dope-on-bigots/260079.md?page=6)