# Does Middle America distrust intellectuals and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478 "2008-10-31T18:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/21 "2008-10-31T19:55:25Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > What does this have to do with anti-intellectualism? I view it as more of a general lack of intellectual or cultural curiousity. Similar to visiting a foreign country and only eating McDonald’s or referring to sushi as “bait”, never having tried it. > [@SuntanTigerTamer](#): > > Conservatives\* have asked the question “Who would you rather sit down and have a beer with?” when deciding the presidency. Cite: [http://http](http://http)://www.americanthinker.co…intellect.html Some comedian said “take a trip down to your local pub. See any Presidents there?” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/22 "2008-10-31T19:57:41Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > I meet some of your definition of “middle America.” I personally don’t think the White House should be a set-aside for Ivy League alumni. Have the last 20 years convinced anybody otherwise? I would hardly compare Bush’s academic record in the Ivy League to Obama’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/23 "2008-10-31T20:01:13Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I would urge you to rethink your position. After all, you’re the intellectual, right? You should be able to see the flaw in your own argument. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/24 "2008-10-31T20:02:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I would hardly compare Bush’s academic record in the Ivy League to Obama’s. Neither would I. But you _did_ compare it to Gores. And Bush outperformed him. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/25 "2008-10-31T20:02:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well said…please forward this to Sarah Palin regarding her remarks on the “Real America”. Those of us living in “fake America” want back in. You’re absolutely correct - all sides on this need to recognize that “America” encompasses all of this and much more… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/26 "2008-10-31T20:04:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > . > > For example, their support of candidates like George W Bush, John McCain and Sarah Palin who either went to second rate schools or when they did go to top colleges, they performed poorly. In contrast, they tend not to vote for high academic achievers like Barack Obama or Al Gore. Why not mention Bill Clinton a Rhodes scholar, who was elected as governor in middle America several times ? > [@](#): > > In business, I have seen time and time again where higly educated consultants would go into a company, their "suggestions would be ignored and then the company would complain that the consultants weren’t helpful. Although sometimes, admittedly, we aren’t helpful, there just seems to be an attitude of “who are you to tell me how to do my job”. Well, unlike you, I haven’t been at your job for 20 years and might be able to provide you with a different perspective. I have to ask you. Did these companies not contract to pay for these “intellectual suggestions”. Doesn’t that suggest they are willing to listen and pay for it. Just because you are an “intellectual” doesn’t mean your suggestions should be implemented. > [@](#): > > So does Middle America have a natural aversion to things it percieves as “intellectual” or “elitist” and if so, why? I’m not from middle America but I understand anti-intellectualism.I’m not an intellectual. I don’t have the training or maybe even the capacity. To listen to an intellectual pontificate is like listening to someone enamoured with his superior mind. Here in Canada we had someone like that. Pierre Elliot Trudeau. I voted for him each and every time when I came of age, because I liked everthing else about him. I hope for Obama because he’s got a lot of other things going for the world. But they are still both “intellectual elitists”. To get back to Bill Clinton. No one ever called him an elitist as far as I know. He was never perceived as showing disrespect like what was perceived by Obama’s “clinging to guns and religion” comment. Its not easy to vote for someone who thinks your mentality is fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/27 "2008-10-31T20:07:07Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s amazing the number of Bush supporters who sneered at his “Ivy League” opponents and then turned right around to boast “Bush is the only President who graduated from Yale and Harvard!” Probably about the same as the number of liberals who get all gushy over a candidate because he’s ‘intellectual’ despite the fact that he’s clearly not. Evidently their definition must be ‘Intectectual: (Noun) A person who agrees with my positions’. Hell, I don’t think Obama even qualifies as an intellectual. His GPA isn’t released, but he didn’t graduate with any of those fancy laude’s, so his GPA was less than 3.3. But good luck trying to get anybody to admit he’s just a chum like the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/28 "2008-10-31T20:11:30Z")
Yikes, another “people who don’t vote for Obama are dumb” thread. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Not significantly; they all seem to have been in the C to C+ range. But this is a classic example of the anti-elitist bait-and-switch approach. I love how a statement that erroneously inflates Gore’s academic achievement is turned around as an example of conservative subterfuge. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/29 "2008-10-31T20:13:11Z")
There is a difference between being elite and being _elitist_. There is a difference between being educated and being _out of touch_. It’s not neccessarily a left/right thing. I could name more than few conservatives or libertarians who have this particular problem. Regardless, it’s the difference between telling people what you think _ought_ to be done and asserting you are smarter/wiser/just plain better. I think the coastal urban elite (which is largely leftist) has slipped into the latter. They have no idea how people in “Middle America” live. They tend to assume we’re all ignorant, uncultured, and quite possibly racist, and frequently seem incapable of even understanding that a very large world lives outside Ney York, Boston, LA, Frisco, and a few outposts of civilization overseas like London. And yeah, it burns. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/30 "2008-10-31T20:15:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I am more or less defining “Middle America” as your typical white, conservative, middle income, small town or suburban American who tends to vote Republican and is scared by Democrats and Liberals. More or less, that is a horrible definition. Might get your intellectual card pulled for that one. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/31 "2008-10-31T20:22:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What I’ve observed is a tendency to distrust “book learnin” over “trustin your gut” or “common sense”. And I’ve seen this in a number of different areas including politics and business. > > So does Middle America have a natural aversion to things it percieves as “intellectual” or “elitist” and if so, why? I’ll try to avoid your over-generalized swipe at all of “middle America”, and concentrate on a few concrete examples: Many “plain folk” are proud of who they are, and for good reason. There is a stong meme in American culture that the greatest democracy in the world was built not by intellectuals, but by the farmers of the 1700’s, the cowboys of the 1800’s, and the factory workers of the 1900’s. (Like all cultural myths and stereotypes, there is a kernel of truth to this.) Many non-college educated people distrust the elitist universities because they believe that universities are closed-minded islands of liberalism, where disent is not tolerated. Example: Yale University proudly hosts an Afghan Taliban, but refuses to let the US Army on campus. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/32 "2008-10-31T20:37:58Z")
I don’t think it’s a “Middle America” problem, but an “American” problem. From childhood, Americans sneer at nerds, and worship jocks. Americans love anti-reason religion, and fear rationalistic science . We put out movies and TV shows that overwhelmingly feature heroes dumber than the villains. Personally, I think the power of religion in our culture is the biggest reason for our fear and hate of intelligence and knowledge. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It turns out people do not like to be wrong. Worse, people when presented with evidence that they are wrong are _more likely_ to continue on that they are right to begin with. This effect is notably more pronounced in those with conservative views than liberal views although both do it. Unfortunately my Google-Fu is failing me as is the restrictive search here (was noted somewhere around here a month or two ago). I’ll keep looking for the study but it was rather alarming. As such though it would then stand to reason that a conservative would not like an intellectual. They do not want their preconceived notions challenged and react poorly to those who suggest they might be wrong (which intellectuals tend to do). I think you are referring to [this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/14/AR2008091402375_pf.html). > [@](#): > > One group was given a refutation – the comprehensive 2004 Duelfer report that concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction before the United States invaded in 2003. Thirty-four percent of conservatives told only about the Bush administration’s claims thought Iraq had hidden or destroyed its weapons before the U.S. invasion, but 64 percent of conservatives who heard both claim and refutation thought that Iraq really did have the weapons. The refutation, in other words, made the misinformation worse. > > A similar “backfire effect” also influenced conservatives told about Bush administration assertions that tax cuts increase federal revenue. One group was offered a refutation by prominent economists that included current and former Bush administration officials. About 35 percent of conservatives told about the Bush claim believed it; 67 percent of those provided with both assertion and refutation believed that tax cuts increase revenue. > > In a paper approaching publication, Nyhan, a PhD student at Duke University, and Reifler, at Georgia State University, suggest that Republicans might be especially prone to the backfire effect because conservatives may have more rigid views than liberals: Upon hearing a refutation, conservatives might “argue back” against the refutation in their minds, thereby strengthening their belief in the misinformation. Nyhan and Reifler did not see the same “backfire effect” when liberals were given misinformation and a refutation about the Bush administration’s stance on stem cell research. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/33 "2008-10-31T20:42:17Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Many “plain folk” are proud of who they are, and for good reason. There is a stong meme in American culture that the greatest democracy in the world was built not by intellectuals, but by the farmers of the 1700’s, the cowboys of the 1800’s, and the factory workers of the 1900’s. (Like all cultural myths and stereotypes, there is a kernel of truth to this.) Well, the Founding Fathers were distinctly the intellectual elite of their day. They seem to have done a good job near as I can tell laying the framework for all that was to follow in this country. > [@](#): > > Many non-college educated people distrust the elitist universities because they believe that universities are closed-minded islands of liberalism, where disent is not tolerated. Example: > Yale University proudly hosts an Afghan Taliban, but refuses to let the US Army on campus. Apart from Political Correctness (which received a well deserved backlash) calling a university and liberals “closed minded” is at direct odds with what universities and liberals are about. Both tend to be FAR more accommodating of divergent viewpoints than any conservative I have ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/34 "2008-10-31T20:45:27Z")
Intellectual seems to have a faintly perjorative ring to it these days, being used to describe penseurs who are big on socio-economic commentary, but short on tangible end-product. If you’re talking about pure intellectual firepower, however, a vast amount of American muscle in this area is to be found in mathmatics, science, medicine and engineering. These are archetypal bring-home-the-bacon areas of endeavour; The WWW and digital revolution, a cure for myelogenous leukaemia, monster truck engineering, medical imaging, etc etc; it would seem obvious that any Middle American would have the same appreciation for these monumental advancements as anyone else, and by extension the intellectual achievement that went into their discovery / invention and development. Even purer academic areas of study, the biochemical origin of life, or fundamental particle physics, say, I would guess as having some sort of currency with middle America. ‘_Son, book learnin’s all well an good, but when it comes to quantum physics you just need to go with your gut_’ is not something I would expect to hear in the American Heartland. It’s also worth pointing out from a foreign perspective that Americans are amongst the least cynical people on earth when it comes to personal achievement, and I would guess that the Mythical Middle American of this thread is one of the least cynical Americans. There is a lot of respect for achievement and success\* per se \*that is lacking in Europe. This may be well wide of the mark, but I see a professor of medieval history being accorded an automatic degree of respect and kudos in Middle America that would not be present in the UK, for example. By respect I’m not talking about bowing down low to the mighty intellect, just a nod of recognition to someone who has gone far and had success on their chosen path. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/35 "2008-10-31T20:54:04Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > More or less, that is a horrible definition. Might get your intellectual card pulled for that one. [Nevertheless, it’s the commonly accepted one.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_America_(United_States)) > [@Sinaijon](#): > > Hell, I don’t think Obama even qualifies as an intellectual. His GPA isn’t released, but he didn’t graduate with any of those fancy laude’s, so his GPA was less than 3.3. Actually he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law. > [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Why not mention Bill Clinton a Rhodes scholar, who was elected as governor in middle America several times ? I think Bill Clinton, with his laid back Southern charming manner, was very good at not appearing overly intellectual. Gore, on the other hand, does come across as a bit stiff and pompous sometimes. (Which is probably why I assumed he did well in school, \*\*Sinaijon \*\*). So clearly perception can also play a role in whether someone is considered “intellectual”. > [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > I have to ask you. Did these companies not contract to pay for these “intellectual suggestions”. Doesn’t that suggest they are willing to listen and pay for it. Just because you are an “intellectual” doesn’t mean your suggestions should be implemented. I think it’s more the reaction from the staff and worker level people we deal with. Not surprisingly there is a natural “they’re here to make us interview for our own jobs” fear (usually we don’t do that though). > [@chappachula](#): > > Many “plain folk” are proud of who they are, and for good reason. There is a stong meme in American culture that the greatest democracy in the world was built not by intellectuals, but by the farmers of the 1700’s, the cowboys of the 1800’s, and the factory workers of the 1900’s. (Like all cultural myths and stereotypes, there is a kernel of truth to this.) It’s more tangible. Everyone can comprehend a car factory assembling cars. Not everyone understands what a Collaterized Debt Obligation or a Residential Mortgaged Back Security is (probably including many of the people who work with them). If a car factory fails, we understand that they sold shitty cars and no one bought them. When a bank fails, what the heck do we know what happened? As far as we can tell, it’s bunch of stuck up jerks pushing numbers around a spreadsheet. Our money is gone and they are off golfing in the Hamptons. I may be wrong, but for some reason I always thought back in the 70s and 80s that the Democratic party was more of the party of the working and middle classes (and Liberal elitists) and that the Republic party was the party of stuffy old money types. I mean most of my adult friends who are bankers tend to vote Republican which surprises me that “Main Street” is so supportive of that party. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/36 "2008-10-31T21:37:48Z")
> [@](#): > > To get back to Bill Clinton. No one ever called him an elitist as far as I know. That’s because he was called an adulterer and a draft dodger and a perjurer. The “elitist” meme hadn’t yet been cooked up as applied to presidential candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/37 "2008-10-31T21:56:47Z")
> [@](#): > > To get back to Bill Clinton. No one ever called him an elitist as far as I know. He was called a “wonk”, which like “nerd” is an accusation of intellectual elitism. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/38 "2008-10-31T22:14:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Does Middle America distrust intellectuals and why? The big Scots-Irish cultural influence. Simultaneously one of greatest strengths, and greatest weaknesses. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/39 "2008-10-31T22:16:02Z")
As one of the relatively few people on either side of my family to finish college, I think I can discuss this from both sides. _Elitists talk nice, real people get things done._ Adlai Stevenson gave great speeches. He had a fantastic wit. Dwight Eisenhower won World War 2. _Elitists don’t care about people._ Bring in some Harvard M.B.A. efficiency expert and the next thing you know, half the staff gets laid off. _Elitists don’t understand the real world._ John F. Kennedy’s strategy in Viet Nam was developed by “Whiz Kid” Robert MacNamara and “the Best and the Brightest” brought into the Departments of State and Defense. This led to Lyndon Johnson’s famous line “I’d feel a hell of a lot better if any of them had ever been elected dog catcher.” _Elitists profit from your misfortune._ Remember Enron and the California energy crisis? Bear Sterns? _Elitists don’t share our values._ Why shouldn’t my kid be allowed to pray in school? Everyone there is a Christian, so it’s not like they’d “offend” some atheist. _Elitists don’t really “work.”_ My wife was in education, and I’ve seen time after time tension between the Ph.D and the D.Ed camps. Ph.D types accuse the D.Ed. of getting a doctorate even though they haven’t done any significant research, the D.Ed. responds that the Ph.D. has never taught a class. _Elitists go out of their way to let you know they’re smarter than you._ Did anybody not feel uncomfortable around William F. Buckley? > [@](#): > > In business, I have seen time and time again where higly educated consultants would go into a company, their suggestions would be ignored and then the company would complain that the consultants weren’t helpful. Although sometimes, admittedly, we aren’t helpful, there just seems to be an attitude of “who are you to tell me how to do my job”. Well, unlike you, I haven’t been at your job for 20 years and might be able to provide you with a different perspective. And just who decided not to follow your suggestions? Not the hourly grunt who works in Accounting. No, it was the same corporate senior managers who authorized spending the money to hire you in the first place. The ones who have been at their jobs for 20 years and worked their way up to management looked at your proposal and said “that’s not the way things work.” ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478/40 "2008-10-31T22:43:41Z")
Is this connected to “Don’t call me sir, I work for a living?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-middle-america-distrust-intellectuals-and-why/470478.md?page=3)