# Does national, sovereign ownership of something extend through regime change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 19, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225 "2018-07-19T21:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/1 "2018-07-19T21:09:26Z")
Very recently a [South Korean salvage team located the wreck of a Russian Imperial Navy cruiser](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/18/wreck-of-russian-warship-found-believed-to-hold-gold-worth-130-billi.html) (Dmitrii Donskoi) which was sunk in 1905 during the Russo-Japanese war. They believe the ship sank with 200 tons of gold bullion and coins worth $130 billion today. The salvagers have promised 50% of whatever is recovered to the Russians. I am not a lawyer and salvage laws have always been a bit of a mystery to me. My understanding is that a sunk ship belongs to the original owner unless they can be proved to have abandoned it. Abandoning it has to be explicit. Just leaving it there for 100 years without trying to look for it is not enough to be considered abandoned. Perhaps more restrictive is (I think) that soveriegn ships (e.g. warships) are forever and ever the property of the country they belong to and cannot be legally salvaged without their permission. But in this case the government who owned the ship was the former tsarist government of Russia. Since then there have been two regime changes. One to the Soviet Union 1917 and another government change in 1991 when the Soviet system collapsed and formed the current government. So, legally, can the Russians claim ownership of this wreck or can the salvagers claim the government the ship belonged to no longer exists and take it all for themselves? (Note that the wreck is in South Korean territorial waters and they would likely tell the Russians they can’t salvage the wreck if they didn’t allow this salvage so this may well be their best deal…just asking out of curiosity.) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/2 "2018-07-19T21:45:35Z")
For the most part, regime change doesn’t affect such matters. For example, there’s the fortune found from (apparently) the Spanish galleon [Mercedes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuestra_Se%C3%B1ora_de_las_Mercedes) found off the coast of Portugal. Spain sued and won it. This from a ship sunk in 1804! :eek: Spain went thru several governments: royal, republican, Franco, current one. There appears to be no equivalent of a statute of limitations on these things. Peru tried to get in on this since the treasure was looted from there. No dice. Note that sometimes regime change _does_ affects state property. E.g., at the end of the war in Europe, the Allies took over the German government and state property (including embassies) and a bunch of other things (e.g., patents). Upon the formation of West and East Germany, some of that stuff didn’t get returned to either country. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/3 "2018-07-19T21:49:56Z")
I think regarding the fall of the Soviet Union at least there’s some kind of treaty whereby Russia is recognised as the successor state of the USSR. Probably not one for the USSR being the Empire’s successor, but as it sat on nearly all the same territory of the Empire, it was kind of a given. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/4 "2018-07-20T02:21:29Z")
But the USSR was recognized as the successor of Tsarist Russia, so the Russian federation is the successor of Tsarist Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/5 "2018-07-20T02:24:58Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But the USSR was recognized as the successor of Tsarist Russia, so the Russian federation is the successor of Tsarist Russia. Does that mean all treaties and debts and whatever else continued from regime to regime intact? ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/6 "2018-07-20T02:30:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Does that mean all treaties and debts and whatever else continued from regime to regime intact? > **[Succession of states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_of_states)** > > Succession of states is a concept in international relations regarding a successor state that has become a sovereign state over a territory (and populace) that was previously under the sovereignty of another state. The theory has its roots in 19th-century diplomacy. A successor state often acquires a new international legal personality, which is distinct from a continuing state, also known as a continuator or historical heir, which despite change to its borders retains the same legal personali A ... > [@](#): > > Consequent upon the acquisition of international personality, the difficult matter of succession to treaty rights and obligations arises.[4] Succession may refer to the transfer of rights, obligations, and/or property from a previously well-established prior state (the predecessor state) to the new one (the successor state). Transfer of rights, obligations, and property can include overseas assets (embassies, monetary reserves, museum artifacts), participation in treaties, membership in international organizations, and debts. Often a state chooses piecemeal whether or not it wants to be considered the successor state. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/7 "2018-07-20T03:12:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But in this case the government who owned the ship was the former tsarist government of Russia. Since then there have been two regime changes. One to the Soviet Union 1917 and another government change in 1991 when the Soviet system collapsed and formed the current government. Nitpicking but there have been three regime changes. The tsarist imperial regime was replaced by a republican government in February 1917 and the republican government was replaced by the Soviet regime in October 1917. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/8 "2018-07-20T03:42:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Does that mean all treaties and debts and whatever else continued from regime to regime intact? In theory, yes, but being sovereign states, trying to enforce debts can be difficult. For example, the Tsarist regime issued a series of bonds on the London market to finance WWI expenses. The Soviet Union refused to pay the bonds as they came due, saying that they were the obligation of the old regime. It became an long-standing dispute between the UK and the USSR. I think the current Russian federation finally paid off the bonds, but at their face value a century on, it wasn’t a big deal. The principle of succession is the reason the Russian Federation has a permanent seat on the Security Council - it’s the accepted successor to the USSR. It’s also why the People’s Republic of China is on the security council: it’s been recognized as the successor to the old Republic of China established by Sun Yat-Sen and Chiang Kai-Shek. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/9 "2018-07-20T20:11:30Z")
Ah - here’s an article from 1997, when the Yeltsin government finally redeemed the Tsarist bonds in France, but at modern exchange rates: [Russia Redeeming Czar’s Bonds:](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/19/world/russia-redeeming-czar-s-bonds.html) > [@](#): > > Hundreds of thousands of holders of czarist-era Russian bonds celebrated today at recovering at least some of the fortune lost in 1917 when the Bolsheviks seized power and renounced the debt. > > But many complained that they were losing out a second time, saying the French government had converted the dollars received from the post-Communist Russian authorities at low exchange rates. > > According to a survey taken between July 1998 and January 1999, there are 315,129 holders of the bonds. They have been notified that they can cash in their holdings, long believed to be worthless, for compensation up to 97,000 francs, or about $12,500. And here’s an article about how the bonds had acquired value as collectibles, but then became eligible to be redeemed, eighty years on: [Eighty years later, the Tsarist bond pays off - Old bonds can turn out to be a lot more than a nice bit of engraving to paper the loo with.](https://www.independent.co.uk/money/eighty-years-later-the-tsarist-bond-pays-off-1283278.html) > [@](#): > > Some flamboyant brokers had their toilets papered with certificates because they were more interesting and cheaper than conventional wallpaper. A very small group then began to accumulate them because of their aesthetic appeal. Certainly many are colourful and the standard of engraving is superb and there was always a remote chance that one day they would be redeemed. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/10 "2018-07-24T14:49:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > …For example, the Tsarist regime issued a series of bonds on the London market to finance WWI expenses. The Soviet Union refused to pay the bonds as they came due, saying that they were the obligation of the old regime… President George Washington, on advice of Alexander Hamilton, took a similar approach in 1793 in asserting U.S. neutrality and refusing to take Revolutionary France’s side in its wars with Great Britain and others. The U.S.'s treaty of alliance had been with the Kingdom of France, not with those who executed the King: [Proclamation of Neutrality - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Neutrality) A slight tangent: Sec. 4 of the 14th Amendment explicitly disavowed the U.S. Government’s responsibility for any debts incurred by the rebellious Confederate government or its people: [Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Validity_of_public_debt) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-national-sovereign-ownership-of-something-extend-through-regime-change/818225/11 "2018-07-24T14:54:01Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > For example, there’s the fortune found from (apparently) the Spanish galleon [Mercedes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuestra_Se%C3%B1ora_de_las_Mercedes) found off the coast of Portugal. Spain sued and won it. This from a ship sunk in 1804! :eek: Spain went thru several governments: royal, republican, Franco, current one. Two different dynasties and two different republics, even (one of the “dynasties” lasted half a lunch hour, but still - Amadeo I de Saboya). And in 1804 there wasn’t even a “kingdom of Spain”, it was still two separate kingdoms. But, like Italy or Germany, it was one of those areas which “everybody knows where it is” even if its legal structure didn’t quite match the mental one.