Does no free will necessarily entail fatalism or nihilism?

There’s only a problem with the notion of free will if you choose to analyze it in terms of certain primitives that you then take as given, as incapable of further analysis themselves, or as just ‘obvious’. So if you insist that things happen ‘according to the laws of physics’, but neglect to ask how the laws of physics make things happen, then you can say that since everything happens according to the laws of physics, and those laws aren’t up to us, what happens isn’t up to us, and we aren’t free.

Likewise, if you insist that things ‘cause’ other things to happen, but omit any question on how it is that such causality works, you can find causes for everything that occurs, which aren’t up to us, stretching back to the big bang or infinite past, and hence, what happens isn’t up to us.

Or, you want to say that things occur ‘randomly’. Again, if you refuse to question how things might happen randomly, if you think no theory is possible or needed for the world grabbing into a universal probability distribution to select one of the possible things and sprinkle it with fairy dust to make it actual, then a random occurrence isn’t up to us, and leaves no room for free will.

These are all perfectly consistent stories. However, they all feature an essential black box, some ‘buck stops here’ primitive notion that isn’t further analyzed. Now, this isn’t in itself grounds to discard them: it may well be that explanation only goes so far, and at a certain point, we must accept some brute facts. But it’s essential to these narratives that you don’t try to pry open the box; otherwise, they just fall apart.

But if these stories are consistent, then so is the following. Everything in the world happens through an act of free choice; that is, everything happens through the intention of an entity that could have intended otherwise. This is a black box: we don’t ask how such free choice works, we just accept it does—bringing it onto the level of natural laws, or causality, or randomness. (This is if course just the notion of occasionalism.)

This world would not necessarily appear any less lawful than ours: like a weaver choosing where to put what colour strand to produce an intended pattern, events in this universe could be arranged such as to be amenable to a description in terms of certain laws of nature—only that those laws would, then, be of a descriptive rather than prescriptive sort: they would exist because the events are arranged a certain way, rather than events being arranged that way by dint of the laws’ decree. (In the philosophy of science, this position is generally known as ‘Humeanism’.)

Of course, we don’t need to go all-out occasionalist to get a story with a meaningful notion of free will. According to our best current understanding, the laws of nature are such as to not produce a unique future from a given present state: there’s wriggle room. Like the rules of chess don’t uniquely determine the game to be played, the laws leave options. Typically, it’s asserted that these options are selected randomly; but there’s nothing that says they can’t be filled by choices. It’s just exchanging one black box for the other.

The only apparent problem for free will is then that some, overly impressed with a simple naturalistic narrative, fail to see the black box nature of the explanations they prefer to adhere to (e.g. natural laws + random selection), and insist that everything must be elucidated in those terms. This is an elementar misconception, but unfortunately often takes on the guise of a fundamental and unquestionable axiom, which tends to make these discussions somewhat circular.

didnt we go round and round all this with machinaaforce on the old board ages ago ?

Without opening any black boxes, if options are not chosen randomly and are not chosen because of an agent’s pre-existing desires, morality, temperament etc., why do we call it a free choice?

Because they could have chosen otherwise. Faced with, say, a 60% preference for tea versus a 40% inclination towards coffee in the morning, they chose the coffee; with the same scenario repeated, they might choose the tea. That doesn’t mean the choice is random: it’s made out of the agent’s willing to choose one option over the other, and that’s where we have to leave things, just as we leave them at things just happening randomly, or by causation, or via natural law.

The problem people have with that is the Schopenhauer regress: we can do as we will, but we can’t will what we will, or else, we’ll never bottom out. But that sort of problem lurks within the other options just as fiercely. If natural laws dictate what happens, what dictates that they do so? If my drinking yesterday causes my headache today, what caused my drinking yesterday? We always face an infinite regress: either we accept that—but then, we can, in fact, will what we will. Or we don’t: but then, we have no account of how things happen at all.

Either is consistent, but believing in the determination through natural law while deriding the idea of free will as preposterous ascribes to one a power that it denies to the other, without giving a sufficient reason.

(In the case of randomness, one can even make the argument formally: mathematically, randomness is tied to powers that transcend the algorithmical in the sense of allowing hypercomputation. A machine capable of that would, however, also have the resources to leapfrog the Schopenhauer regress: a universe that has the resources to produce true randomness also has the resources to produce free will.)

How could they have chosen otherwise? It’s Thursday morning and my brain and my surroundings are in a certain state (electrical and chemical, temperature, whatever) and someone asks me coffee or tea. It seems to me that the answer will be dictated by the state of my brain at that moment.

A day passes, but wait! A genie comes along and rewinds the universe to yesterday, in the same state. It’s Thursday morning and my brain and my surroundings are in a certain state and someone asks me coffee or tea. How could my answer be different?

By wanting the other option.

How, though? Do the laws of nature mandate that the state of your brain dictates your choice? Does that state cause the choice? Does it happen randomly?

If you’re maintaining it’s either if those, you incur as great an explanatory debt as those who say it’s their free will that allows them to choose. It’s just that you’ve learned not to question those other options, while requiring further elucidation in the case of free will.

Yes. How could it be otherwise?

It can if one is being aware of what the genie did.

How could my brain be aware of what the genie did if it’s in the same state that it was in yesterday?

Granted. But if they do choose otherwise and it’s not for any reason like, “I feel like tea today” or “I want to exercise my free will”, it doesn’t seem like a free choice so much as something happened differently this time. I don’t even see why we would say the agent made the choice. Seems more like it just happened.

How could it be that way? How do natural laws force things to happen in a particular way? What gives them that power? How does a chain of causality get started? Is there an uncaused first cause? Or just an infinite chain of causes? But then why that chain rather than any other?

But there is a reason: they wanted tea, rather than coffee.

I don’t see how any of this relates to free will.

If I have a computer in a certain state and it receives certain inputs, it will go onto the next state, which state is either pre-determined or random. Let’s leave out randomness, because I don’t think quantum effects work on the brain except by accident, and no one would (or should, I guess) consider random to be free will anyway.

How is that different from my brain being in a certain state when the question comes in? Sound waves will hit my ears, my brain will process those sound waves in order to understand that it’s a question and will choose coffee or tea based on whatever state it’s in. Otherwise, there would have to be some non-physical soul or something, unconstrained by physical laws, acting independently of my brain state.

Yes, but the reason they wanted tea is because of the state of their brain and surroundings.

My understanding was that things had been returned to the same state they were in the first time.

The movie Groundhog Day illustrates the point well – every day, everyone’s brain was exactly the same except for Bill Murray’s. So, unless he interacted with them (or, through some butterfly effect from his actions), their day would always be the same.

Bill Murray was aware of what the genie did, of course, so made different decisions – his brain was in a different state every day due to his memories.

If one makes the genie, you explain why is that one is not aware. Of course, the question is also: does the genie has free will then?

I don’t think it’s relevant whether the genie has free will. Call it a strange loop, a time warp, a quantum event we don’t understand, but something that rewinds the universe to yesterday.

I don’t really understand that statement. I didn’t say that I made the genie, just that a genie (or some physical phenomenon, or God, or whoever is running our simulation) rewinds the universe to yesterday.

Thing is that it looks then as being pointless, unless the subject is aware of the move, then there is no chance to notice a difference.

According to HMHW, I can still make another choice somehow, because of free will, from what I understand of their statements.

Of course, then I can make a choice here :slight_smile:

What then if the subject is aware of the change, would another choice made because one is aware of what will take place means that there is free will?