# Does no one suspect the legitimacy of Trump's Presidency? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [September 28, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457 "2025-09-28T17:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/61 "2025-10-07T17:51:10Z")
Look, let’s just Occam’s Razor it: It’s far, far likelier that Biden won in 2020, and Trump won in 2024, because more voters overall, and in swing states, decided to vote for them. Straight up. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/62 "2025-10-07T18:00:45Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > If you have real evidence of election fraud, please show it so we can evaluate it. The rest of us are defining election fraud as changed numbers of votes, whether suppressed or added, to make a difference in the final totals. If you are using a different definition, please state that as well. I’m using the correct definition of words. The problem is people are reading the words I wrote and then substituting in other words. I said Donald Trump may have committed election fraud in 2024. I did not say Donald Trump committed election fraud in 2024. Hopefully you can see the difference between those two statements. I have also said that it is more likely that Donald Trump committed election fraud in the 2024 election than it is that Joe Biden committed election fraud in the 2020 election. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/63 "2025-10-07T18:02:35Z")
You said and I quoted that there is “evidence.” I want that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/64 "2025-10-07T18:04:14Z")
I have given the evidence. If you’re asking for the proof, then I’ll again point out that evidence and proof are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/65 "2025-10-07T18:46:16Z")
I’m not seeing it. Your only claim is that Trump tried to get more votes in 2000, which is not in any way _evidence_ that votes were changed in 2024. Humor me and give the evidence again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/66 "2025-10-07T20:43:11Z")
Let me approach this from another direction. As I noted earlier, Donald Trump called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger on January 2, 2021 and told him to find 11,780 votes. That, as I noted, is an attempt at election fraud. We have proof of this because this phone call was recorded and the recording was made public. As I also noted, Trump made phone calls to the Secretaries of State of three other states on January 2, 2021. These phone calls were not recorded. Now do you think there’s evidence that Trump attempted election fraud with all four Secretaries of State? Or do you think he only attempted election fraud with Raffensperger? Note that I’m not asking if there’s _proof_ that Trump attempted to commit election fraud during these other three phone calls. I’m asking if you think there’s _evidence_ that Trump attempted to commit election fraud during these other three phone calls. The answer is yes. The fact that we have proof that Trump attempted to commit a crime during the recorded phone call is evidence that he attempted to commit a crime during the other three unrecorded phone calls. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/67 "2025-10-07T22:39:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We have documented proof that Donald Trump tries to commit election fraud when he runs for President. On more than one occasion. That is evidence that Donald Trump may have committed election fraud when he was running for President in 2024. That is literally **not** evidence of the crime in question. Claiming that it is really puts one squarely in the camp of MAGAs yelling “Biden crime family!” at the cameras as “evidence” that the 2020 election was “stolen” by Biden. And again, if you tried taking TFG to court using this as the entirety of your “evidence”, you wouldn’t even get as far as he did losing every attempt to challenge the election results in court. Your case would be dismissed out of hand, with prejudice. Because it is not evidence of the crime in question. Calling it evidence is literally abusing the actual definition of the word. Using this twisted logic, there is “evidence” that everyone who ever committed a crime committed it again. This is why prior bad acts are not only not evidence, but they are also not admissible in court. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/68 "2025-10-07T22:45:19Z")
That’s like saying, “John Smith tried to rob Bank of America in 2020, so this is evidence that he robbed Chase Bank in 2024.” ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/69 "2025-10-07T22:48:27Z")
I’m tired of hearing that he won “all the swing states”. They’re not close because they’re swing states, they’re swing states because they’re close. And it it, in the final analysis, a national election. It would be a lot more suspect if they’d split 3/4. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/70 "2025-10-08T00:01:12Z")
Indeed. I think you have clearly established that the suspect had the _character_ to commit this crime in 2024, and he certainly had the _motivation_. It’s plausible that he had the _intent,_ and even a plan to do so in the weeks following election night. All of that is quite believable. What is being alleged, however, is that he **actually did anything in 2024**. Is there a scintilla of evidence that this happened? Not that it could have, not that it might have, not that a similar thing happened four years earlier, not that it would have happened if things were different, but **that it did**? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/71 "2025-10-08T00:11:10Z")
Once again, you guys are confusing two different things; evidence that something may have happened and proof that something did happen. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/72 "2025-10-08T00:35:49Z")
I’m asking about a middle ground: not evidence that it **may** have happened (because aliens _may_ come out of my butt tomorrow: anything might happen), and not **proof** that it happened, but **evidence** that it happened. That evidence may not be sufficient to constitute proof, but until there’s some evidence, there’s no reason to even look for proof. If you’re just idly speculating that it might have happened, sure, it might’ve, but it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/73 "2025-10-08T00:48:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > If you’re just idly speculating that it might have happened, sure, it might’ve, but it didn’t. Are you saying there is a zero percent chance that Trump engaged in some election fraud in 2024? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/74 "2025-10-08T00:50:14Z")
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/75 "2025-10-08T00:51:43Z")
Then same question. Are you also saying there is a zero percent chance that Trump engaged in some election fraud in 2024? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/76 "2025-10-08T01:14:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you saying there is a zero percent chance that Trump engaged in some election fraud in 2024? No. I am saying that I am confident that he did not do so. Since it is possible that I am wrong, I would have to put the chances somewhere between 0% and 49%. But since there is no evidence other than the imaginative possibility that he might have, let’s say there’s a generous 3% chance that he did so. More seriously, is there a point to discussing such counterfactual hypotheticals? If it’s just a thought exercise, great, but please frame the question so that that’s clear. If, on the other hand, you’re talking about the reality of the recent past, I don’t think requesting actual evidence, even if flimsy, is unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/77 "2025-10-08T01:21:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > No. I am saying that I am confident that he did not do so. Since it is possible that I am wrong, I would have to put the chances somewhere between 0% and 49%. But since there is no evidence other than the imaginative possibility that he might have, let’s say there’s a generous 3% chance that he did so. Okay, so you are saying Trump may have committed election fraud in the 2024 election. Which if you check is what I’ve been saying. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/78 "2025-10-08T01:25:34Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > More seriously, is there a point to discussing such counterfactual hypotheticals? If it’s just a thought exercise, great, but please frame the question so that that’s clear. Some of us feel that discussing how likely it is that the President who is currently in office has committed serious political crimes is an important topic. If we wanted to discuss unimportant issues, we could discuss whether Rutherford Hayes committed election fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/79 "2025-10-08T01:41:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some of us feel that discussing how likely it is that the President who is currently in office has committed serious political crimes is an important topic. Okay. I am much more interested in the many, many crimes and other Unconstitutional acts which he has committed for which there is evidence. But if it’s fun for you to speculate about other things he may have done for which there is not a shred of evidence, okay: he may have. It’s vanishingly unlikely, but he may have. You win! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2025, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457/80 "2025-10-08T01:54:45Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I am much more interested in the many, many crimes and other Unconstitutional acts which he has committed for which there is evidence. Well, this is a thread about Trump committing election fraud. There are other threads for his other crimes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-no-one-suspect-the-legitimacy-of-trumps-presidency/1023457.md?page=5)