# does Obama surpass Thomas Jefferson in terms of raw intellect **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 16, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769 "2015-10-16T00:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/21 "2015-10-16T17:00:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Except that Obama is just reading speeches written by somebody else. Intellectually, he’s a complete lightweight…a man who thinks that there are 57 states, and that all good things come from Washington. [Wrong as usual, King Friday.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Democratic_National_Convention_keynote_address) > [@](#): > > Obama first met Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry in the spring of 2004, and was one of several names considered for the role of keynote speaker at the party’s convention that summer. Obama was told in early July 2004 that he was chosen to deliver the address, and he largely wrote the speech himself, with later edits from the Kerry presidential campaign. Delivered on the second night of the DNC in just under 20 minutes, the address included both a biographical sketch of Obama, his own vision of America, and the reasons for his support of Kerry for the presidency. Unlike almost all prior and all subsequent convention keynote addresses, it was not televised by the commercial broadcast networks, and was only seen by a combined PBS, cable news and C-SPAN television audience of about 9 million. Since its delivery, several academics have studied the speech, both for the various narratives it describes as well as its implications for racial reconciliation. Every president has speech writers or course, which is an indication of lack of time, not brainpower. Obama of course also wrote a bestselling book my himself. I await your apology to our president. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/22 "2015-10-16T17:01:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, for all his theoretical brilliance, Jefferson often displayed a lack of practical intelligence. He personified the ivory tower intellectual. As a dilettante, Jefferson excelled. He could write well but certainly benefited from editing–which he got for the Declaration & didn’t get for his only book, _Notes on the State of Virginia_. His wartime governorship of Virginia was disastrous–see [_Flight from Monticello: Thomas Jefferson at War_](http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Monticello-Thomas-Jefferson-War/dp/0199837325/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1445014140&sr=8-1&keywords=from+monticello). Jefferson’s first presidency is considered successful because of the Louisiana Purchase–which pretty much fell into his lap; at least he was able to overcome his “weak executive” & “no debt” principles & say yes to the deal. His second presidency, not so much. (Famously, Jefferson left the Governorship & the Presidency off his tomb inscription.) Too bad TJ couldn’t even run his plantation efficiently. Washington set traditions for many presidents to follow but none of the Southern slaveholding Presidents followed his lead by freeing their slaves posthumously. Too much debt! And in TJ’s case, too many expensive, distracting hobbies. So the Jefferson slaves were auctioned off–breaking up families. I’m not impressed by TJ’s “raw intellect.” And can’t compare President Obama. (As a member of the House of Burgesses, Jefferson had proposed exiling from Virginia any white woman having a baby by a black man. One of several proposals the other Burgesses rejected.) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/23 "2015-10-16T17:27:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He invented the carbon copy thingy for handwritten documents, and a weird door-linking gear mechanism for Monticello. Was there anything else? When I was a kid, I learned that he’s credited with inventing the dumbwaiter. Is that accomplishment still a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/24 "2015-10-16T18:01:41Z")
No. He invented a rotating bookshelf modeled on the étagère (a rotating food stand that was initially known as a dumbwaiter in English-speaking places) in the US, though. [George Cannon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Cannon) invented the thing we know as a dumbwaiter today. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/25 "2015-10-16T18:03:31Z")
I don’t mean to impune President Obama, but it seems to me his main talent is that he’s a good public speaker. What reason do we have to think Obama’s intelligence is particularly high? There’s a ton of Hollywood celebrities who have charisma, but also pretty obviously have a lot of empty space upstairs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/26 "2015-10-16T18:09:50Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > What reason do we have to think Obama’s intelligence is particularly high? He scored in the 94th percentile on the LSAT, which correlates pretty well with IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/27 "2015-10-16T18:12:46Z")
Also, he was president of the law review, “considered the highest student position at Harvard Law School” according to [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/first-black-elected-to-head-harvard-s-law-review.html) from 1998, when he was still unknown to most. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/28 "2015-10-16T18:15:25Z")
Law review editorial board positions are elected, so they’re not really an indicator of intellect. Getting on law review in the first place means you are a top-ranked student, though. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/29 "2015-10-16T18:23:06Z")
You can also tell he’s no dummy by seeing his responses to events like “town hall”, where he doesn’t know the questions ahead of time. He does have a broad knowledge base and the ability to come up with intelligent answers quickly. This doesn’t prove he’s a genius, vs Jefferson, who probably was, but he’s no dummy. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/30 "2015-10-16T18:31:01Z")
Oh, I’m sure he’s no dummy. If he was stupid, he’d never have been elected, and certainly wouldn’t have gotten re-elected. But the idea that he’s on par with a guy like Jefferson, who was basically the quintessential Renessaince man, is pretty far-fetched. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/31 "2015-10-16T18:46:08Z")
I’m not sure what Jefferson’s broad-ranging interests say about his intelligence. They tell us he was intellectually _curious_, and smart enough to understand complex issues, but you don’t have to be a genius to take an interest in lots of things. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/32 "2015-10-16T20:17:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He invented the carbon copy thingy for handwritten documents, and a weird door-linking gear mechanism for Monticello. Was there anything else? [Here is a fun little link.](http://classroom.monticello.org/kids/gallery/home/6/) Most of these are just “gizmos.” They’re remarkably intricate gizmos, however, and show a deep understanding of the principle behind the ostensible goal of the device. He probably spent far more time inventing these things than they could possibly have saved him later by using them. Also, just the architectural design of Monticello, overall: it’s brilliant. That alone puts him above all but a very few of our other high elected officials. Can you imagine John Boehner or Nancy Pelosi drawing up plans for something half as elegant? ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/33 "2015-10-16T23:25:02Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > Also, public speaking ability isn’t a great way to measure “raw intellect”. Also he’s not a great public speaker. Take away his teleprompter and wait for the lulz. (same is true of many politicians, true) ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/34 "2015-10-17T03:09:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He scored in the 94th percentile on the LSAT, which correlates pretty well with IQ. cite? Is his LSAT score part of the public record? ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/35 "2015-10-17T03:17:18Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Also, he was president of the law review, “considered the highest student position at Harvard Law School” according to [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/first-black-elected-to-head-harvard-s-law-review.html) from 1998, when he was still unknown to most. The “highest _student_ position”. When my friend became student body president, he also held the “highest student position” at the school I was attending. I don’t see how holding such a position has anything to do with intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/36 "2015-10-17T03:22:07Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > You can also tell he’s no dummy by seeing his responses to events like “town hall”, where he doesn’t know the questions ahead of time. He does have a broad knowledge base and the ability to come up with intelligent answers quickly. This doesn’t prove he’s a genius, vs Jefferson, who probably was, but he’s no dummy. The president didn’t do especially well during the first “debate” with Romney. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/37 "2015-10-17T03:27:06Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > The “highest _student_ position”. When my friend became student body president, he also held the “highest student position” at the school I was attending. > > I don’t see how holding such a position has anything to do with intelligence. How would you say your school compares with Harvard Law? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/38 "2015-10-17T03:27:29Z")
Obama is one of the smartest Presidents we’ve ever had, top 10 certainly, but I’d actually rank him below Jefferson, Clinton, and Jimmy Carter. As a public speaker, he sounds good but doesn’t seem to be able to move the needle of public opinion the way Reagan or Clinton or Kennedy could. In style he’s a top 10 public speaker, in the ability to actually persuade he might be bottom 10. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/39 "2015-10-17T11:24:34Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Also, he was president of the law review, “considered the highest student position at Harvard Law School” according to [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/first-black-elected-to-head-harvard-s-law-review.html) from 1998, when he was still unknown to most. So what did he write for the law Review? Was it like his Nobel Peace Prize (awarded apparently, for “looking appropriate”)? ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769/40 "2015-10-17T12:52:48Z")
No doubt that Obama is a good public speaker, and was a great candidate. However as an intellect, not there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-obama-surpass-thomas-jefferson-in-terms-of-raw-intellect/734769.md?page=3)