# Does Occupy "Pepper Spray cop" deserve 38 K worker's compensation claim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180 "2013-10-25T02:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/41 "2013-10-29T17:24:23Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > They were not physically blocking them. They were sitting down and not resisting. If you looked at your own video, the pepper spray cop calmly steps past the sitting students and sprays them. Each of the cops could have done the exact same thing. As for your other points, the students did not take the space from anyone. That assumes other people have a claim to it. The correct claim, of course, is whoever is using them. Again, if I’m sitting down at a public bench, neither you nor anyone else can tell me to move so you can use it. The students used that space for the purpose it was intended. It just so happens some people didn’t like the message they were presenting. They shouldn’t have been arrested and certainly shouldn’t have been pepper sprayed Yeah, I think the particular circumstances at Davis were not necessarily the same as what we were seeing in city parks across the country (tents set up in areas where camping is simply not allowed). I don’t remember the details of that incident, but it did seem like the cops had other options. Just walking up a pepper spraying the students seems like the wrong thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/42 "2013-10-30T01:23:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > They were not physically blocking them. They were sitting down and not resisting. They _were_ blocking them, that was the point of locking arms across the path, to prevent the cars holding the arrested protesters from leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/43 "2013-10-30T01:35:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I think the particular circumstances at Davis were not necessarily the same as what we were seeing in city parks across the country (tents set up in areas where camping is simply not allowed). I think that they were similar in that regard, the protesters were changing UC Davis into a campground, without permits, as well as blockading buildings and pathways. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/44 "2013-10-30T17:02:50Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > They _were_ blocking them, that was the point of locking arms across the path, to prevent the cars holding the arrested protesters from leaving. Again, the cop in question physically stepped over them and shook up the bottle of pepper spray in front of them in preparation to spray it. The students might have been in the way, but each of the cops could have just stepped out of the circle at any time. The key here is that they were not resisting in any way. The cops were wrong and the students were right ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/45 "2013-10-30T18:46:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Again, the cop in question physically stepped over them and shook up the bottle of pepper spray in front of them in preparation to spray it. The students might have been in the way, but each of the cops could have just stepped out of the circle at any time. At that point the police had already arrested protesters. The line of students had locked arms across the path to prevent the cops from leaving with those they had arrested in custody. The occupiers justification for blockading the police in this case has always been that the arrests that the police had made were illegitimate. Just like they think they should be able to personally decide which local regulations they are required to follow when it comes to camping in public spaces not designated for that use, when people are arrested they feel themselves entitled to make decisions via mob action that are usually reserved for our judicial system. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/46 "2013-10-30T18:50:08Z")
The official report of the incident is a great read. It pretty clearly shows that the entire operation was a fuck-up on the part of the police. [http://reynosoreport.ucdavis.edu/reynoso-report.pdf](http://reynosoreport.ucdavis.edu/reynoso-report.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/47 "2013-10-30T18:50:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > That would be applicable if the students were there for an excessive amount of time and it was being used improperly and someone else was also trying to use the space were wrongfully blocked from doing so. Can you claim all 3 criteria were present before the cops decided to forcibly move them? I’d argue only one of those three need be present–in that they were there for an excessive amount of time. Much of the Federal wilderness lands and national forests allow tent camping wherever you’d like. But you are required to move your tent regularly, if you do not (and rangers do actually track and enforce this), you will usually be given a warning to move or the next time they come by you will be cited. This is necessary because any general idea that you can camp out in the national forests would basically be akin to allowing general squatters rights in them, and thus denying many areas from being truly public use any longer. If someone wants to spend months camping out there, moving camp site every day or every few days (I can’t remember the regulation now)–then have at it. But you don’t get to convert a specific plot of land to your private camp/residence. So your “tripod” of what would make it acceptable to evict people from a park is both poorly thought out and inconsistent with how parks are usually managed. I agree with broad public access, but if someone is trying to establish a permanent or long term camp in a public park, wilderness area or etc it is improper and against their intended use. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/48 "2013-10-30T18:50:45Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > At that point the police had already arrested protesters. The line of students had locked arms across the path to prevent the cops from leaving with those they had arrested in custody. The occupiers justification for blockading the police in this case has always been that the arrests that the police had made were illegitimate. Just like they think they should be able to personally decide which local regulations they are required to follow when it comes to camping in public spaces not designated for that use, when people are arrested they feel themselves entitled to make decisions via mob action that are usually reserved for our judicial system. How does that justify the use of pepper spray on non-violent protesters? ---
**Author:** ![Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/49 "2013-10-30T18:53:47Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Bull, there is no way whatsoever that he could have possibly known, when applying for the job that if he used pepper spray it might result in [this](http://www.human-highway.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Casual-pepper-spray-cop_John-Pike_christianity-abendmahl1.jpg). > > Yes, cops do know that there’s going to be some emotional baggage that comes with the job, especially if they have to shoot someone, use a LTL weapon or even kill someone. But there’s no way he could have known that using his pepper spray would result in him being called a sadistic douche or having his picture plastered all over the internet for the next few months, out of context and shown spraying just about everything people could [paste it on top of](http://cdn0.lostateminor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pepper-spraying-cop5.jpg)…[or make cookies out of him](http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=3CE-tHlRgPUaMM&tbnid=-lzSvZCW4pZb4M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeppersprayingcop.tumblr.com%2F&ei=bkNsUtxaj4eRB427gVg&bvm=bv.55123115,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNF3Qv7764vBd4FSwpx4bGSex1pDXw&ust=1382913088714764). > > Find that in the police handbook and I’ll say admit that this was a known possibility. > > Oh, and UC can and does pay out for things that happen on the job, that’s what it’s there for. Well, maybe he shouldn’t have been an evil piece of shit, then people would not have treated him as such. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/50 "2013-10-30T18:54:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How does that justify the use of pepper spray on non-violent protesters? To take it one step further… the canister of pepper spray that was deployed is designed for long-distance application to an area. It is NOT for use at close range, much less 2 feet away as the officer deployed it. So, does any of this justify the improper application of a chemical agent using a device that the officer has not received adequate training on. That’s the question. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/51 "2013-10-30T18:55:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How does that justify the use of pepper spray on non-violent protesters? In this situation I don’t believe the pepper spray was justified. If the police were acting lawfully in arresting the protesters then those who had ringed them in and were impeding the arrest were themselves committing a crime. I saw a retired police officer give an interview about this case when it happened, his advice in a situation like this was that they should have placed each student in the ring under arrest and one by one started transporting them to wagons. That way you break the ring apart without having to resort to pepper spray or etc. His argument was that if you didn’t have the manpower on site to arrest that many, then you should pull back and call more in until you do. If they started violently resisting at any point then obviously something like pepper spray could be justified. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/52 "2013-10-30T19:13:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How does that justify the use of pepper spray on non-violent protesters? Locking arms in an attempt to impede the police leaving with the arrestees justifies it. They could have used force in a different way, more likely to cause injury. The only other option would be to submit to the will of the mob. If that’s how we did things the University of Alabama wouldn’t have black students. I have been reading the report and it looks like other officers were able to leave with some of the arrestees, so the pepper spray might not have been the _smartest_ option, but the police are still justified in using force against people who are trying to physically block their movement, especially when it is a mob attempting to extort the release of fellow protesters, even if it is not 100% certain that the mob is succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/53 "2013-10-30T19:15:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In this situation I don’t believe the pepper spray was justified. If the police were acting lawfully in arresting the protesters then those who had ringed them in and were impeding the arrest were themselves committing a crime. > > I saw a retired police officer give an interview about this case when it happened, his advice in a situation like this was that they should have placed each student in the ring under arrest and one by one started transporting them to wagons. That way you break the ring apart without having to resort to pepper spray or etc. > > His argument was that if you didn’t have the manpower on site to arrest that many, then you should pull back and call more in until you do. If they started violently resisting at any point then obviously something like pepper spray could be justified. They protesters had locked arms. In order to arrest them without pepper spray the police would have had to start wrestling them apart from each other. This would be far more likely to cause injury to the protesters and the police. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/54 "2013-10-30T19:16:01Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I have been reading the report and it looks like other officers were able to leave with some of the arrestees, So keep reading, and you’ll discover that at no time were the officers surrounded, penned in, or prevented from leaving. How a line of people sitting on a sidewalk can keep another person from walking away or around them is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/55 "2013-10-30T19:20:05Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > They protesters had locked arms. In order to arrest them without pepper spray the police would have had to start wrestling them apart from each other. This would be far more likely to cause injury to the protesters and the police. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/56 "2013-10-30T19:25:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I disagree. To me the problem is they never _tried_ to separate them. The protesters may have passively allowed themselves to be separated, in which case it would have been the prudent action. If they had started violently resisting, that would be the point I think most departmental use of force guidelines would have allowed for pepper spray. I usually give deference to professional standards and expertise where appropriate, and what I had read / heard when this happened is many other police officers felt the appropriate response would have been attempting to arrest the protesters who had impeded their path. You don’t begin arrest proceedings with pepper spray if no other violent elements or danger is present. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/57 "2013-10-30T19:26:39Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > So keep reading, and you’ll discover that at no time were the officers surrounded, penned in, or prevented from leaving. How a line of people sitting on a sidewalk can keep another person from walking away or around them is beyond me. It could be difficult to escort an arrestee through a line of people with their arms locked, the cops can’t safely bring a handcuffed person into that situation, so they would have to try to go around. And if they tried to go around they could be impeded by other protesters or by the same ones moving, since blocking the police is what the protesters were _explicitly attempting to do_. Cops shouldn’t be required to play red rover, if you lock arms and try to block their path you should expect to get pepper sprayed in the face, and you are lucky to live in a society progressive enough that it takes the trouble to use force against you in a way unlikely to cause injury. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/58 "2013-10-30T19:35:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > To me the problem is they never _tried_ to separate them. The protesters may have passively allowed themselves to be separated, in which case it would have been the prudent action. If they had started violently resisting, that would be the point I think most departmental use of force guidelines would have allowed for pepper spray. > > I usually give deference to professional standards and expertise where appropriate, and what I had read / heard when this happened is many other police officers felt the appropriate response would have been attempting to arrest the protesters who had impeded their path. You don’t begin arrest proceedings with pepper spray if no other violent elements or danger is present. Do you really think that the protesters who had locked arms would have just released their grip if they had been placed under arrest? I guess it is possible, but considering how everything else was going down there I highly doubt it. And the only way to find out would have been to start tugging on them, which would be more likely to lead to injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/59 "2013-10-30T19:52:04Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Do you really think that the protesters who had locked arms would have just released their grip if they had been placed under arrest? I guess it is possible, but considering how everything else was going down there I highly doubt it. And the only way to find out would have been to start tugging on them, which would be more likely to lead to injuries. More likely than pepper spray? Tugging people’s arms isn’t going to break them or even bruise them, while the pepper spray causes injury than can persist for days. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180/60 "2013-10-30T20:31:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > More likely than pepper spray? Tugging people’s arms isn’t going to break them or even bruise them, while the pepper spray causes injury than can persist for days. Yes, it doesn’t take much force to tear ligaments, and a torn ligament can lead to permanent injuries. Injuries that merely persist for days are barely injuries at all, more like irritations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-occupy-pepper-spray-cop-deserve-38-k-workers-compensation-claim/672180.md?page=4)