# Does Overturning an Election equate to Overthrowing the Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 20, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986 "2023-04-20T19:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/43 "2023-04-20T21:16:40Z")
Treason always prospers. What’s the reason? If it doth not prosper, none dare call it treason. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/44 "2023-04-20T21:17:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > > > I believe Trump and many of his supporters believed there was actual fraud taking place - not just rhetoric - he honestly believed the election was being stolen. > > I can certainly believe that some / many of the insurrectionists, having been comprehensively lied to for months by major media outlets dedicated to helping Trump remain president, _sincerely_ held the belief the election was stolen. But only because they were too blind to listen to anything they didn’t already agree with. But that sincerity is not in any sense “honest belief”; instead it’s utterly “intellectually dishonest unreasoning faith”. There _is_ a difference. A crucial one. > > Creating a monomaniacal fanatic is not the work of an afternoon. It’s the work of years. Which work had been assiduously in progress for a decade before Trump ever stuck his nose into politics. But which he, along with e.g. Fox showed great skill in amplifying and exploiting. > > As to what Trump himself “honestly believed”, I’m not sure “honest belief” is a term that can actually be applied to such a psychologically defective individual. He certainly preferred to believe that, once again in the utter absence of actual factual evidence and in fact in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. > > The fact the person entrusted with the Presidency could be so blinded to the facts by his own self-interest seems to me to be incontrovertible evidence of his 25th Amendment incapacity for the job. I don’t disagree with any of this. Don’t forget to add the months and months of rioting by the (mostly) left and BLM, Antifa, etc. leaving the right with more of a reason to go off half-cocked. “Why can’t we riot? Those guys got to!!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/45 "2023-04-20T21:18:38Z")
“Antifa”! Drink! ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/46 "2023-04-20T21:19:25Z")
Thanks for sharing (post 24), I will read this later tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/47 "2023-04-20T21:20:47Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > “Antifa”! Drink! All I have is bourbon, can I drink too, or is it everyone except me? Not sure the rules on this one… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/48 "2023-04-20T21:21:09Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Don’t forget to add the months and months of rioting by the (mostly) left and BLM, Antifa, etc. I’ll take “Things That Never Happened” for $600, Ken. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/49 "2023-04-20T21:24:00Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > All I have is bourbon, can I drink too, or is it everyone except me? Not sure the rules on this one As long as your bourbon is more real than the Antifa riots you are alleging, you’ll be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/50 "2023-04-20T21:26:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > > > Don’t forget to add the months and months of rioting by the (mostly) left and BLM, Antifa, etc. > > I’ll take “Things That Never Happened” for $600, Ken. What, are we not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source anymore? Been gone too long… [Antifa described as sometimes violent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/51 "2023-04-20T21:27:31Z")
I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/52 "2023-04-20T21:29:12Z")
Citing Wikipedia to a person whose avatar is literally himself wearing an Antifa mask? This is gold, Jerry! ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/53 "2023-04-20T21:34:39Z")
I didn’t realize you were/are the project coordinator for Antifa, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/54 "2023-04-20T21:36:35Z")
I missed this, I’d love to know what was said that got modded to quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/55 "2023-04-20T21:38:03Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Probably. Which police were killed on Jan 6th? I’m not sure if you’re trying for a “gotcha” since officer Sicknick died the next day, not on January 7. But it’s generally accepted in common law that a person cannot be tried for murder if the victim died more than a **year and a day** after the offence which caused it. Perhaps you were confused, and thought that the “year and a day” rule was “a day” rule. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/56 "2023-04-20T21:51:47Z")
No, not a gotcha. Would you say that someone who dies in police custody because of a stroke that it’s the cops fault for arresting them? Unfortunately, he probably had a pre-exinsting health condition. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/57 "2023-04-20T21:54:52Z")
Would like to note that the situation regarding the officer’s death has nothing to do with the topic of the thread and probably is a threadjack. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/58 "2023-04-20T21:56:22Z")
Concur. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/59 "2023-04-20T21:56:57Z")
So, the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, the Hells Angels, and various police departments are all left-wing groups? Because they’re the ones who started all the riots at BLM protests. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/60 "2023-04-20T21:57:01Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Unfortunately, he probably had a pre-exinsting health condition. Funny. The cops said the same thing about George Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/61 "2023-04-20T21:57:48Z")
OP seems to have so much bad information that several posters are just leaving this thread and giving it up as a waste of time. I’ll just summarize a few points that others have made better and more extensively. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > I take exception to anyone saying that the events of Jan 6th were an attempt to overthrow The Government rather than to overthrow An Election. Overthrowing an election and preventing a duly elected administration from taking power _ **absolutely is** _ overthrowing the government and usurping democracy. Further, while the US government is not monolithic, the executive branch with the US president in total control represents the greatest concentration of power in one person – and that was precisely what Trump and his insurrectionists were trying to seize by force. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > I don’t believe it was an insurrection, because it was aimed at an Act or a Result and not at the entirety of the US Government. Wrong. See above. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > I think we need to temper our language to describe what actually happened that day. “Insurrection” describes it just fine. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Because none of that happened is my answer. Trump sent in the national guard and ended the occupation. Not only false, as already noted by many, but Trump was reveling in the insurrection on his behalf so much that he wanted to join it, resulting in a confrontation with Secret Service in the presidential limo. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > I believe Trump and many of his supporters believed there was actual fraud taking place - not just rhetoric - he honestly believed the election was being stolen. Trump knew very well that he had lost. His ego and his quest for power created a dangerous pathological fiction that he then peddled to his credulous acolytes. I have no doubt that a fair proportion of the dumbasses who advocated and rioted for him sincerely believed his election lies, but Trump himself was in a position to have all the facts, and he did. Remember, too, that Trump is a serial liar who lies with such casual facility that it means nothing to him. He is utterly devoid of the ethics or conscience that would burden normal people if and when they lie. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Don’t forget to add the months and months of rioting by the (mostly) left and BLM, Antifa, etc. leaving the right with more of a reason to go off half-cocked. “Why can’t we riot? Those guys got to!!” WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986/62 "2023-04-20T22:04:03Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Don’t forget to add the months and months of rioting by the (mostly) left and BLM, Antifa, etc. Also, there were the Jewish Space Lasers and the secret Democrat child slavery in Comet Ping Pong Pizza. Don’t forget about those! These horrific things gave the right wing reasons to do what they did. Right? Right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-overturning-an-election-equate-to-overthrowing-the-government/982986.md?page=4)