# Does pork rhyme with fork/cork/dork/bork to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568 "2014-05-16T03:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/81 "2014-05-17T02:54:54Z")
Okay, I’m going to try again. Is this the distinction? rhotic: [poɹk] [fɔɹk]/[fɒɹk] non-rhotic [poːk] [fɔːk]/[fɒːk] (this one almost starts sounding like “fuck” [fʌːk]/[faːk] to me) If this is correct, then it’s a distinction that many English speakers—particularly in most of the United States—will not be able to pronounce or even hear. It takes me much practice saying them over and over to begin to get the hang of it. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/82 "2014-05-17T03:10:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m not sure why people are confused. > > 1. Pork and Dork clearly rhyme. > > 2. Fork and Spork clearly rhyme. > > The things from list 1 clearly do not rhyme with the things from list 2. > > Cork, however, rhymes with both lists 1 and 2. Oh, well when you put it that way…😕 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/83 "2014-05-17T03:34:19Z")
For what it’s worth, I was born in Scotland and completely get the difference between pork and fork. I’m Canadianized and have been for some 40 years. They rhyme in my adopted dialect. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/84 "2014-05-17T03:40:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Okay, I’m going to try again. > > Is this the distinction? > > rhotic: > [poɹk] [fɔɹk]/[fɒɹk] > > non-rhotic > [poːk] [fɔːk]/[fɒːk] (this one almost starts sounding like “fuck” [fʌːk]/[faːk] to me) > > If this is correct, then it’s a distinction that many English speakers—particularly in most of the United States—will not be able to pronounce or even hear. It takes me much practice saying them over and over to begin to get the hang of it. I hope this isn’t too offensive - it’s me speaking: https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?visual=false&url=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F149929618&show_artwork=true&maxheight=166 IPA experts can make of it what they like. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/85 "2014-05-17T03:46:21Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I hope this isn’t too offensive - it’s me speaking: > > [Stream Porkfork by PaulParkhead | Listen online for free on SoundCloud](https://soundcloud.com/paulparkhead/porkfork) > > IPA experts can make of it what they like. Yes. The 21 to 23 second stamps are the Scottish distinctions of which I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/86 "2014-05-17T03:52:00Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Yes. The 21 to 23 second stamps are the Scottish distinctions of which I mentioned. Yes, indeed. I can’t describe the difference with IPA, but it is there. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/87 "2014-05-17T05:02:07Z")
American here (Boston area) confused how they could possibly NOT rhyme. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/88 "2014-05-17T05:09:55Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > American here (Boston area) confused how they could possibly NOT rhyme. What am I missing? Accents? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/89 "2014-05-17T05:15:48Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > American here (Boston area) confused how they could possibly NOT rhyme. What am I missing? I’m not really comfortable posting my voice online, but I just did so in order to answer that very question. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/90 "2014-05-17T07:58:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m not sure why people are confused. > > 1. Pork and Dork clearly rhyme. > > 2. Fork and Spork clearly rhyme. > > The things from list 1 clearly do not rhyme with the things from list 2. > > Cork, however, rhymes with both lists 1 and 2. Rhyming is non-transitive? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/91 "2014-05-17T10:56:50Z")
I think Ascenray’s (post 81) IPA description matches PaulParkhead’s voice recording well. Basically, for those few dialects where there is a distinction, “pork” begins rather close to “poor,” while “fork” begins somewhat towards “far.” ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/92 "2014-05-17T11:26:56Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I don’t think there’s any useful way to determine what definitively “rhymes in English”. It is true, I think, that the majority of English speakers would say that the words in question _do_ rhyme. That’s been my experience in England and the USA and is why I chose, in this poll, the option of “I’ve heard both” rather than “Of course they don’t rhyme, WTF is the matter with you?” > > But what do you mean when you speak of “English”? Apparently this is a definition that excludes 5 or 6 million speakers of the language. Which group of speakers gets to define how English is spoken? > > And it’s not the fact that we’re unusual that I object to - I already know that. It’s that people won’t even accept the fact that we exist. When I said “English”, I meant any of the dialects of English, including Scottish English, but also American, British, Canadian, New England, Southern US, … I agree that defining what “rhymes in English” doesn’t really make sense unless you’re talking about a particular dialect. But that seems to be exactly what they’re talking about at that Wikipedia page linked in the OP. There aren’t separate Wikipedias for different _dialects_ of English, like there are for different languages. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/93 "2014-05-17T12:04:12Z")
Americans should be the last of any English-speaking culture to dictate what rhymes with what. Or maybe second-last. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/94 "2014-05-17T12:41:25Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I think Ascenray’s (post 81) IPA description matches PaulParkhead’s voice recording well. > > Basically, for those few dialects where there is a distinction, “pork” begins rather close to “poor,” while “fork” begins somewhat towards “far.” It makes sense to me that some dialects would do this. To make a “p” sound, you have to put your lips farther forward than for an “f” sound, so it’s understandable that, for some people, this colors the quality of some vowels which follow. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/95 "2014-05-17T13:12:07Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I hope this isn’t too offensive - it’s me speaking: > > [Stream Porkfork by PaulParkhead | Listen online for free on SoundCloud](https://soundcloud.com/paulparkhead/porkfork) > > IPA experts can make of it what they like. That seems to match the transcription I attempted. Thanks! Now I’m jealous of your accent. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/96 "2014-05-17T13:40:06Z")
**Acsenray** , sorry I misspelled your username. I was never very good at Pig Latin. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/97 "2014-05-17T15:46:13Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > When I said “English”, I meant any of the dialects of English, including Scottish English, but also American, British, Canadian, New England, Southern US, … > > I agree that defining what “rhymes in English” doesn’t really make sense unless you’re talking about a particular dialect. But that seems to be exactly what they’re talking about at that Wikipedia page linked in the OP. There aren’t separate Wikipedias for different _dialects_ of English, like there are for different languages. And obviously there are some rules that all English speakers would agree on - after all, we are able to communicate despite our different accents and dialects. What does seem strange is the fact that there is, apparently, a Wiki editor who is overruling the statement that “pork” has rhymes. It very obviously _does_ have rhymes to most speakers of English. I just ended up getting a little grumpier than was perhaps necessary on this thread because there appeared to be people who were unwilling to accept the opposite - in some accents, the words do not rhyme. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/98 "2014-05-17T15:47:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That seems to match the transcription I attempted. Thanks! > > Now I’m jealous of your accent. NP. When I lived in the USA, the accent would have been (had I not been monogamously married) quite useful for picking up members of the opposite sex. Or indeed, the same sex. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/99 "2014-05-17T19:01:17Z")
Don’t tell me the [Rappin’ Rabbis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8QTDkP-HWk) are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568/100 "2014-05-17T19:17:35Z")
Pork rhymes with gork, hork, jork, lork, mork, nork,rork,sork,tork, vork, and zork, as does fork. Anyone who doesn’t pronounce pork and fork to rhyme are putting on some ridiculous affectation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-pork-rhyme-with-fork-cork-dork-bork-to-you/688568.md?page=6)